Corporal difference of rank

[Pierre]

Hello All,

Just to ask the difference between a 2nd corporal with lance corporal and corporal.

Is it a special stripe or chevron ?

Many thanks.

Pierre

[Guest]

Hi Pierre. Hope this helps.

other ranks insignia

Cheers Mike

[Pierre]

Many thanks, Mike,

I don't find something about 2nd corporal, what is the distinctive insignia ? Is it a rank ?

Cheers.

Pierre

[GWRCo]

....and to confuse matters ever more, there's also corporal of horse - two chevrons with a crown above!

tim

[truthergw]

Many thanks, Mike,

I don't find something about 2nd corporal, what is the distinctive insignia ? Is it a rank ?

Cheers.

Pierre

Hi Pierre. British custom is to refer to a lance corporal with one stripe and a corporal with two. The latter sometimes referred to as a full corporal if it was necessary to emphasise his rank. I have not seen reference to 2nd Corporal. Could you perhaps give the context?

[centurion]

I quote from 'Digger History'

"In WW1 in Engineer Units (particularly Railway Units) the rank of 2nd Corporal was used. It equates with Lance Corporal."

[Ian Riley]

Pierre,

I mentioned this in a post here when there was a discussion about bombardiers and lance bombardiers.I have pasted the relevant paragraph below.

King's Regulations for 1912 amended to 1 August 1914 (para282 - some paragraph, it's a massive table) shows that the actual rank of an acting bombardier was 'Trooper, gunner, driver, sapper, pioneer (RE), or private' and it was the same for a Lance Corporal. Clearly gunner or driver is appropriate here. The rank of bombardier is bracketed with 2nd Corporal (for Bands and the REs). Bombardier seems to be associated (but not necessarily exclusively) with appointments of 'Bombardier artillery clerk' and 'Bombardier-Cook'. (This is getting a bit abstruse but then what's the Forum for?) The rank of corporal is placed above that.

The precedences of rank (para 284) are then stated as Corporal then Bombardier/2nd Corporal (equal) then the private soldiers (including the 'acting bombardiers' and 'lance-corporals'). So it would appear that Bombardier was substantive (higher in the pecking order than a Lance Corporal) but acting bombardier was not.

I notice Centurion has made the Royal Engineer connection whilst I have been searching for the old post! It doesn't seem to be quite the same as a lance corporal but that gets us into discussions about the differences betwen ranks and appointments.

Ian

[Muerrisch]

During the Great War:

one chevron: infantry lance-corporal* but see below, RA bombardier and acting bombardier*, RE and AOC 2nd corporal

[lance-bombardier did not exist at this time]

2 chevrons: Coldstream, Scots and Irish Guards lance-corporal*, infantry corporal, RA corporal, RE and AOC corporal

2 chevrons and grenade: Grenadier Guards lance-corporal,

2 chevrons and crown: household cavalry lance-corporal, and corporal, [certain other cavalry regiments had a regimental badge instead of crown]

3 chevrons: infantry lance-sergeant* [an appointment for a substantive corporal] and never with a sash, also infantry sergeant [sometimes with sash] including Guards [but GG had grenade above], Household Cavalry corporal-of-horse [with crown], RA [with gun], RE [with grenade] and AOC sergeants.

[Lance-corporal of Horse did not exist at this time]

Those marked * are appointments to be held, paid or unpaid, by next lower rank.

[Wardog]

I have a MM and bar trio to A L Munden 56 Division Signals RE. The MM is to A Cpl, the War and victory to 2 Cpl. If I remember he was a mounted linesman. His records are online as service records and also under pension records. Cheers, Paul.

[Pierre]

Many thanks, All,

Not easy, but more clear for me now.

Cheers.

Pierre

[Ian Riley]

Pierre,

Looking at my initial reply, recycled from another post, and the contributions of others, I think it might be easier for you to have a brief summary so (at my peril and I hope I have not misunderstood anybody's contribution) ...

2nd Corporal was a rank in the Royal Engineers, and apparently also in the Army Ordnance Corps and (according to the official pay warrant for 1914 edit King's Regulations for 1914) could be found in bands also (ie musicians)*. It equated to bombardier** in the artillery and was a permanent rank immediately below corporal. The holder wore one chevron/stripe.

Lance Corporals wore one stripe/chevron but this was not a permanent rank. Lance Corporal was an appointment and the appointment could be lost if a man changed units or simply did not do the job very well.

Note

*I am quoting the pay warrant in associating 2nd Corporal with Royal Engineers and bands (para 282)

**Bombardier in the artillery in WW1 was not the same rank as it is today (when it equates to full corporal).

Ian

PS I posted this accidentally when only half complete; this is an edited posting

Edited 26 October , 2009 by Ian Riley

[centurion]

If I understand all the above correctly

A Lance Corporal and a 2nd Corporal had the same mark (single stripe) and level of authority but the Lance Jack could be 'busted' by a simple administrative action (including a transfer) whereas the 2nd Corporal would need a formal disciplinary action for this to happen.

[joseph]

A 2nd Corporal and Bombadier out ranked a Lance Corporal, a Lance Corporal only took precedence over Privates and ranked among themselves on date of appointment.

Regards Charles

[Ian Riley]

If I understand all the above correctly

A Lance Corporal and a 2nd Corporal had the same mark (single stripe) and level of authority but the Lance Jack could be 'busted' by a simple administrative action (including a transfer) whereas the 2nd Corporal would need a formal disciplinary action for this to happen.

I have used Grumpy's post as the authority for rank/appointment badging and for 2nd Corporals within the AOC.

As Joseph/Charles said, "2nd Corporal and Bombadier outranked a Lance Corporal" (and an Acting Bombardier also). Those holding the appointments of Lance Corporal or Acting Bombardier held the rank of Private or equivalent. "An acting or lance NCO may be ordered by a CO to revert to his permanent grade, but is not liable to a summary or minor punishment in addition." (King's Regs 1912 amended to 1 August 1914 para 499 - this is under a section on 'minor and summary punishments').

" ... an acting bombardier. lance corporal or acting lance corporal takes precedence of all privates etc." [KRs 1914 para 285 (f)].

Therefore, technically, they do not have the 'same level of authority' as bombardiers and 2nd Corporals except some with rank of bombardier in particular appointments (eg bombardier artillery clerk and bombardier-cook) and similarly some with the rank of 2nd Corporal in particular appointments (eg engineer clerk 2nd corporal) were

"not entitled to assume any command on parade or duty, except of such soldiers as may be specially placed under their orders. In matters of discipline, however they will at all times exercise the full authority attached to their rank or appointment" (KRs 1914 para 283).

My understanding is that an appointment is within a unit and if the soldier moves units, he lost the appointment. It may of course have been agreed that he was transferring to fill an equivalent appointment.

Ian

[Piorun]

Skipman posted the answer with the first reply. Go to the website and look at "Historical Ranks" - Second Corporal: ordnance rank until 1920, equivalent to lance-corporal but a substantive instead of an acting rank. Regards, Antony

[joseph]

Skipman posted the answer with the first reply. Go to the website and look at "Historical Ranks" - Second Corporal: ordnance rank until 1920, equivalent to lance-corporal but a substantive instead of an acting rank. Regards, Antony

Skipmans reference is incomplete and wrong, Ians reply is using a primary source reference and was the authority at the time.

Regards Charles

[Muerrisch]

Quite so! I get a bit fed up with modern references to the Great War, with no regard to 'as it was'.

[west coast]

i got this from digger history. "rank at a glance". thought it might be interesting, theres plenty of information in the book.

mike.

[centurion]

Perhaps I should have prefixed my summary with the words 'For all practical purposes'

[Ian Riley]

Quite glad I let my porridge digest before any further posting this morning.

Thanks to West Coast for the link to Rank at a Glance. It is unlikely to be definitive but if it is anything like its companion Badges and Their Meaning (very useful for recognising WW1 officers by the shoulder straps of their greatcoats, should I ever come across a colour photo of same, and Italian Vice Admirals, should a WW1 battleship of their Navy make its way to the Mersey), it will be quite jolly although probably a source of endless discussion on exceptions to its 'rules'. I haven't seen the badges of rank for the Volunteer Training Corps before (possibly because I haven't looked very hard).

Ian

[Muerrisch]

Ill. 202: WO II existing so May 1915 or later. Badge correct.

207, 208, 208, 210, 211 total cobblers for 1915, 209 partially wrong.

Apart from that, a splendid source of definitive wisdom .... written without regard to Clothing Regs, Army Orders, Army Council Instructions and the Vocab of Clothing.

An interesting example of nearly 100% tosh.

PS I blush to add that I am happy to own one, and its companion volumes.

But then, we all make mistakes.

[Ian Riley]

Apart from that, a splendid source of definitive wisdom .... written without regard to Clothing Regs, Army Orders, Army Council Instructions and the Vocab of Clothing.

Thanks; your response has brightened my afternoon! Doubtless, it kept civilians amused in 1915

Might there be a definitive oracle on the way?

Off topic, this smart chap just out of Moss Bros window is from Badges and Their Meaning (1s 3d). I shall not be joining any discussion as to how many exceptions/inaccuracies there might be. I'm sorry to say that I used it to partially answer a query from an artist on cuff rank insignia last month.

Ian

[Piorun]

Skipmans reference is incomplete and wrong, Ians reply is using a primary source reference and was the authority at the time.

Regards Charles

The original post was regarding the difference between Second Corporal, Corporal, and Lance-Corporal.

Skipman's answer was incomplete? In what regard?

Wrong? Why?

Regards, Antony

[Muerrisch]

I am sure that Skipman can conduct his own defence.

However:

the link is to a modern rank structure and badging. In the Great War, bombardier and second corporal were full ranks, not appointments for gunners, drivers, sappers or pioneers ['privates']. They wore one chevron. They were senior to all lance-corporals of whatever hue. These two extra rank steps were eradicated in 1920.

At that time soldiers hitherto 'bombardier' were promoted to corporal in effect, 2 chevrons, and title of 'corporal' was changed to 'bombardier'. Existing corporals were appointed lance-sergeant [until 1946] [a new appointment for RA]. A lance-sergeant could be distinguished from a full sergeant by lack of the gun badge above the three chevrons.

[joseph]

incomplete? In what regard?

He only mentions the AOC Clerk as a Second Corporal,

to make it complete

2nd Corporal of the Band

Engineering Clerk 2nd Corporal*

Engineering Ledger keeper and Storeman 2nd Corporal*

*an appointment with the rank conferred on appointment,

During the Great War the Conductor was not the “senior” Warrant Officer they had respective rank with Master Gunner 1st Class, Schoolmaster 1st Class Warrant officer and Staff Sergeant Major 1st Class. according to their date of their promotion or appointment.

Regards Charles