Survivors from HMS India

[tootrock]

I have been researching some Coastguards who returned to sea service at the outbreak of the war, and I noted that one of them was killed when HMS India, an armed merchant cruiser, was sunk by a U-boat off the coast of Norway, on August 8th 1915.

Having read this I assumed that the ship had been lost with all hands, but subsequently I have found that about half the crew were saved, but interned in Norway for the duration. The sinking had apparently taken place within Norwegian territorial waters.

I was then intrigued to find that another Coastguard also serving on HMS India was given a month’s leave from internment because his wife was sick.

This was subsequently extended to 2 months, after which he presumably had to return to Norway.

Was this a common practice? What sanctions could be used if a man did not return?

Martin

[ionia]

I have been researching some Coastguards who returned to sea service at the outbreak of the war, and I noted that one of them was killed when HMS India, an armed merchant cruiser, was sunk by a U-boat off the coast of Norway, on August 8th 1915.

Having read this I assumed that the ship had been lost with all hands, but subsequently I have found that about half the crew were saved, but interned in Norway for the duration. The sinking had apparently taken place within Norwegian territorial waters.

I was then intrigued to find that another Coastguard also serving on HMS India was given a month’s leave from internment because his wife was sick.

This was subsequently extended to 2 months, after which he presumably had to return to Norway.

Was this a common practice? What sanctions could be used if a man did not return?

Martin

I think the sinking might have been just outside Norwegian Territorial Waters. The survivors (141?) were picked up by some Norwegian vessels and by the armed trawler SAXON and (all?) landed in Norway where they were interned.

The 1907 Hague Convention provided that:

"CHAPTER II Belligerents Interned and Wounded Tended in Neutral Territory

Art. 11.

A neutral Power which receives on its territory troops belonging to the belligerent armies shall intern them, as far as possible, at a distance from the theatre of war.

It may keep them in camps and even confine them in fortresses or in places set apart for this purpose.

It shall decide whether officers can be left at liberty on giving their parole not to leave the neutral territory without permission. "

There was no provision for leave other than to officers but such was granted to other ranks on compassionate grounds from time to time by neutrals e.g The Netherlands.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Some records at Kew that might be of interest to you:

ADM 1/8429/227 Loss of HMS INDIA in the Westford. Internment of survivors in Norway. Landing crew of HMS LORD ALVERSTONE in Norway under similar circumstances.

ADM 116/1440 Loss of H.M.S. INDIA

[kin47]

Hello

I can name 139 survivors from INDIA. They are listed below.

All best

don

AERS FRANK ERNEST A.B. 142921 (Ch)

AKERMAN ANDREW S.R. WARRANT TELEGRAPHIST, RNR

ALLTREE ERNEST W. A/S/LT, RNR

ATKINS D. GREASER, MMR

ATTWOOD JOHN SHIRLEY A.B., RNVR LONDON 1/2680

BAKER ARTHUR WILLIAM SIGNALMAN 238983 (Ch)

BALE CLAUDE J. S/LT, RNR

BARBER GEORGE TRIMMER, MMR

BENTLEY WILLIAM L. BAKER'S MATE, MMR

BIGGS JOHN H. LT, RNR

BINNEY CHARLES A.B. SS 2214 (Ch)

BLACK CHARLES L. TEMPORARY MIDSHIPMAN, RNR

BOLTON NORMAN PRIVATE Ch 19119

BROWN GEORGE ANDREW A.B. 208652 (Ch)

BRUCE ALEXANDER L/FIREMAN, MMR

BRYANT EDWARD W. STEWARD, MMR

BYRNE CHARLES J. CHIEF GUNNER

CARNES JOHN HENRY A.B. 166541 (Ch)

CARPENTER HENRY A.B. 201208 (Ch)

CHIRCOP LORENZO CAPTAIN'S VALET, MMR

CHURCHER ALGERNON A. STEWARD, MMR

CLARK WILLIAM JAMES FIREMAN, MMR

CLARKE JOHN FIREMAN, MMR

CLARKE RICHARD ARNOLD E.R.A., RNVR CLYDE Z 16

CONNOR JAMES TRIMMER, MMR

COOPER GEORGE L/FIREMAN, MMR

CRUIKSHANK ROBERT D. PROBATIONARY MIDSHIPMAN, RNR

DALY W. TRIMMER, MMR

DAVIES HUGH A.B., RNVR BRISTOL Z 251

DAVIES WILLIAM T. TRIMMER, MMR

DOCKREE WALTER MASTER AT ARMS (Pens) 350132 (Ch)

DUNN ROBERT STOREKEEPER, MMR

DUNT WILLIAM CHARLES A.B 182308 (Ch)

EADE ALFRED FREDDY MASTER AT ARMS (Pens) 139530 (Ch)

EVANS CLARENCE THOMAS PRIVATE Ch 19126

FARLEY EDWARD GEORGE JUNIOR RESERVE ATTENDANT M 9919

FIELDING GEORGE CHIEF WRITER, MMR

FISHER J. H. TRIMMER, MMR

FLYNN TIMOTHY FIREMAN, MMR

FRANKLIN J. GREASER, MMR

FROST ALFRED TRIMMER, MMR

FURNISS CHARLES MATTHEW A.B. 162226 (Ch)

FURY ALFRED GREASER, MMR

GERMAN GEORGE STEWARD, MMR

GILCHRIST ALAN ALFRED A.B. SS 2893 (Ch)

GILL ALFRED T. (J ?) TRIMMER, MMR

GLIBBERY JOHN FIREMAN, MMR

GOMES FRANCIS PANTRYMAN, MMR

GOODMAN JOHN FIREMAN, MMR

GOWERS REGINALD CHARLES PRIVATE Ch 19151

GROUNDWATER RICHARD G. LT, RNR

HACKETT WILLIAM A.B. 173676 (Ch)

HADDOW FREDERICK A. TRIMMER, MMR

HAWES SIDNEY FIREMAN, MMR

HENNESSEY DANIEL TRIMMER, MMR

HENRY DAVID FIREMAN, MMR

HILL HENRY GEORGE A.B., RNVR BRISTOL 2/130

HINES FRED P.O. 1c 190736 (Ch)

HOLE SYDNEY PERCY A.B. 236285 (Ch)

HOOD FREDERICK HYDRAULIC WINCHMAN, MMR

HOWLETT THOMAS A.B. 172508 (Ch)

HYDE THOMAS H. GREASER, MMR

IRWIN WILLIAM A.B. 191440 (Ch)

JACKSON WILLIAM G. (J ?) CHIEF COOK, MMR

JENKINS HAROLD R. TEMPORARY MIDSHIPMAN, RNR

JOHNSON GERALD S. ENGINEER, RNR

JOHNSTON JAMES T. SURGEON PROBATIONER, RNVR

JONES WILIAM A.B. 178144 (Ch)

KENNEDY WILLIAM G.A. CDR

LAMB WILLIAM STEWARD, MMR

LAWRENCE ROBERT T. BAKER, MMR

LAWSON FRANK W. TEMPORARY SURGEON

MACDIARMID JOHN M. ASST/ENGINEER, RNR

MAGILL JOSEPH VINCENT MAHOOD BOY 1c J 34313

MALAM WILLIAM FIREMAN, MMR

MARCHINGTON EDWARD TRIMMER, MMR

MCCAN JAMES STOKER, MMR

MCKAY JOHN ENGINEER, RNR

MCKEAG ERNEST L. TEMPORARY MIDSHIPMAN, RNR

MCKEE JOHN FIREMAN

MCKINNON JOHN STOKER, MMR

MCKIVER EDWARD STOKER, MMR

MCREARY ERNEST JAMES PRIVATE Ch 19222

MILLER E. FIREMAN, MMR

MILLIGAN MATTHEW O.S. J 41004 (Ch)

MOORE CHARLES TRIMMER, MMR

MOORE DAVID P.O. 1c 134222 (Ch)

MOSS GEORGE VALENTINE A.B. 228500 (Ch)

MUSSELWHITE HAROLD A/S/LT, RNR

NAHAR JOHN G. (P ?) STEWARD, MMR

NELSON CHARLES W. SENIOR ENGINEER, RNR

NORTON FRANK H. FIREMAN, MMR

OAKLEY WILLIAM TRIMMER, MMR OAKBY

O'CONNOR NICHOLAS PRIVATE Ch 19107

PATMORE FRANCIS W. ASST/ENGINEER, RNR

PERRY SAMUEL J. STEWARD, MMR

PETERS ARTHUR W. STEWARD, MMR

PIKE FREDERICK CORPORAL, RMLI Ch 11417

PIPKIN ERNEST ASST STOREKEEPER

REVELL JOHN LEONARD TEMPORARY WARRANT TELEGRAPHIST, RNR

REX CYRIL PRIVATE Ch 19118

RILEY HENRY W. CHIEF STOKER identified as Stoker without official number

RIPLEY HERBERT CHARLES COLOUR SERGEANT, RMLI Ch 7437

ROBERTSON A. TRIMMER, MMR

RODRIGUES MARIANO STEWARD, MMR

ROSS CHARLES STEWARD, MMR

ROSS RONALD C. PROBATIONARY MIDSHIPMAN, RNR

SAMPSON FREDERICK ERNEST A.B. 171702 (Ch)

SKELTON ARTHUR JOHN E.R.A., RNR 1741 EA

SMART WILLIAM O.S., RNVR CLYDE Z 1493

SMITH H. FIREMAN, MMR

SMITH THOMAS HENRY PRIVATE Ch 18258

SPITERI FELICE FIREMAN, MMR

SUMMERFIELD SAMUEL EDWARD A.B. 164464 (Ch)

TANNER ARTHUR CHARLES P.O. 1c (C.G.) 201416 (Po)

THOMPSON CHARLES STEVEN PRIVATE Ch 19243

TILLEY WILLIAM M. FIREMAN, MMR

TIMS FREDERICK W. ENGINEER, RNR

TINDLING JOHN FIREMAN, MMR

TOTHILL JOHN HOLMAN STOKER 1c SS 102744 (Dev)

TRAVIS WILLIAM A.B. 201860 (Ch)

TRINDER DAVID FRANCIS PRIVATE Ch 18228

TURNER LOUIS CECIL ARMOURER'S CREW M 8470 (Ch)

WALKER CHARLES PERCIVL BUGLER, RMLI 18305 (Ch)

WALKER HENRY JOHN L/SEAMAN 177263 (Ch)

WALLIS CHARLES EDWARD A.B. 180600 (Ch)

WARD ARTHUR BUTCHER, MMR

WARD WILLIAM JAMES P.O. 1c 125843 (Ch)

WARE ALBERT CHARLES L/SEAMAN 170330 (Ch)

WATKINS WILLIAM H. GREASER, MMR

WELLS JOHN THOMAS A.B. 187563 (Ch)

WHITE ARTHUR TRIMMER, MMR

WHITE CHARLES A.B. 181578 (Ch)

WILLIAMS THOMAS PRIVATE Ch 18239

WILSON CHARLES R. STEWARD, MMR

WOOD GEORFGE ARTHUR JUNIOR RESERVE ATTENDANT M 9723 (Ch)

WORROW THOMAS FIREMAN, MMR

WYATT WILLIAM HENRY A.B. 184628 (Ch)

ZWINK HENRY OTTO A.B. SS 2209 (Ch) also known as THOMAS, HENRY GEORGE

[stevem]

There is quite a lot of information on HMS India and the crew here:

http://www.btinternet.com/~k.barltrop/index.htm

Steve

[tootrock]

Thanks to all for the information.

I will check out the files at Kew on my next visit.

The man granted leave was originally assumed dead, and was included in the list of dead and missing printed in the Times on August 17th 1915. But this was in error as he continued in the Coastguards after the war, and died in 1932.

He was 152245 Edward Isaac Penton.

His wife survived the wartime sickness.

Martin

[kin47]

Thanks, Martin for the Penton name.

For my list, Aers is listed in error - he was killed in the sinking.

All best

don

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Do you have his naval seaman's register?

Name Penton, Edward Isaac

Official Number: 152245

Place of Birth: Hyde, Hampshire

Date of Birth: 27 November 1874

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=16

He might also have seen some service in the colonial wars.

[tootrock]

I have a copy of his naval record from ADM 188/219. He served in theRoyal Navy from 1890 until 1903, when he became a Coastguard Boatman. I have no idea as to where he served, only the ships he served on. Between 8 August 1915 and 13 November 1918 it has "Interned in Norway". His compassionate leave is mentioned under "Remarks".

His record card in ADM 175/83b gives his Coastguard postings. Between 30 July 1914 and 30 January 1919 it merely mentions "Service afloat", nothing about Norway!

Martin

[melliget]

..included in the list of dead and missing printed in the Times on August 17th 1915. But this was in error..

He was included in the list of missing, which wasn't really in error - they just didn't know his whereabouts at that time, whether he had been killed or survived.

It's an interesting case. I wonder if he did go back to Norway? He would have been made to give his word of honour (parole h'honneur) that he would return, like prisoners (mainly officers?) were similarly required to do that they wouldn't try to escape. Not sure how common the practice was (allowing prisoners temporary leave) in WW1 - not that common, I expect. Obviously they couldn't do anything to him if he didn't return but perhaps some threat of reprisals against his fellow prisoners who remained, should he not do so, may have been spelt out in no uncertain terms.

regards,

Martin

[tootrock]

I have discovered that there are some Foreign Office files at TNA relating to this incident. One of them mentions Penton by name. I will check it out next time I visit. He was apparently not the only internee allowed home leave from Norway.

Martin

[per ardua per mare per terram]

if he didn't return but perhaps some threat of reprisals against his fellow prisoners who remained, should he not do so, may have been spelt out in no uncertain terms.

It would also have caused a diplomatic incident with a neutral power.

[tootrock]

I have recently been to the NA, and can now furnish some further information on this.

Survivors from HMS India (8 August 1915) were taken ashore in one of 3 ways:

10 officers, 72 men and 4 dead were picked up by the Swedish ship Gotaland and landed in Narvik

8 officers, 52 men and 7 dead were picked up by the armed trawler HMS Saxon, and landed at Narvik.

48 men and 3 dead came ashore in 2 of HMS India’s ships boats at Helligver.

According to the rules the men landed by the Gotaland were allowed back to Britain, but the rest were interned.

HMS Saxon, again by the rules, was allowed to stay a maximum of 24 hours in a neutral port. She left within that time, but without the men from the India, as she would have been too overcrowded. Commander Kennedy of the India was offered the chance to sail with her, but decided to stay with his men.

The dead were buried with full ceremony in Narvik cemetery.

In September 1916 the Norwegian Government granted Leading Seaman Edward Penton 1 month’s leave of absence to visit his sick wife in England, provided the British Government guaranteed that he would return to Norway and that he would do no military work while he was away. As his wife was still ill towards the end of his month at home he applied for, and got, a month’s extension, and subsequently a third month.

Other men requested home leave for similar reasons, and in time ordinary leave seems to have been granted to many. The men sailed from Bergen to Newcastle either on Admiralty ships or Wilson Line civilian steamers.

When it was time for them to return the men had to report to the Royal Naval Division Record Office, 47, Victoria St, SW., to obtain a permit to leave the country and a Railway Warrant for travel Newcastle.

Commander Kennedy had instructions to report any man who failed to return to the Norwegian authorities.

Regarding “Honour”, I have seen another case where a Lt. Eddis RN escaped from an internment camp in Denmark. There was uproar in some of the British press, saying that as an officer and a gentleman he had given his parole not to escape, and had dishonourably broken this pledge. Lt. Eddis’ case was that he was allowed out of camp between 9 and 12 and again between 2 and 5 each day, and he had given his parole not to escape while he was out. He subsequently escaped at 6pm!

Martin

[BottsGreys]

Martin:

Nothing about Norway or the internment, but this may be of interest.

Chris

I have an early-20th century photo album from the Charles and Elvira Gibbs family of Bath, Somerset. Below is the text of a newspaper article in the album regarding the February 26, 1916, marriage of their oldest daughter, Elvira, to Chief Engineer John Joseph "Jack" McKeag, RNT. As noted at the end of the article, Jack McKeag's brother, Midshipman McKeag, was the survivor of a torpedoed ship. This brother was Midshipman Ernest L. McKeag of the India. Interestingly, the article states that like his brother, Jack McKeag was also on a vessel which was torpedoed during the war. He died of illness in 1918 while attached to RFA Carol. I have found that postwar Ernest L. McKeag went on to become a prolific writer under several pen names of crime novels, as well as other genres. *See the link at bottom below for an article about his literary output. According to the article, Ernest died in 1974 and had his ashes scattered at sea.

News clipping pasted in Gibbs' album:

"A pretty naval wedding was witnessed at Holy Trinity Church, Bath, on Saturday, when Miss Elvira Gibbs, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Gibbs, of Parkhurst, Park Lane, was married to Chief Engineer Jack McKeag, Royal Naval Transport. The wedding was a quiet one, owing to the war but the presence of two naval officers, Lieuts. Norman Coxon and Arthur Watkins, who were in attendance on the bride groom, added an extra touch of picturesqueness to the wedding. The ceremony was performed by Preb. T.L. Sissmore. The bride, who was given away by her father, wore a fawn gabardine costume, with hat to match, under brim of cerise. She carried a lovely bouquet of orchids. Miss Emmeline Gibbs was the bridesmaid. She wore a black and white costume, with a black velvet hat to match. Mr. Gibbs was in the uniform of the 2nd Somerset Volunteer Regiment, and the bride's brothers, Sergt. Charles Gibbs, and Corp. Fred Gibbs, are two well-known members of the N.S.Y. The bridegroom, it is interesting to recall, has had the experience during the war of being on a ship that was torpedoed, and being under shell fire from the submarine while getting into the boats. His brother, Midshipman McKeag, has also been saved from a torpedoed boat. Over 40 sat down to breakfast at Parkhurst."

Marriage notice

"McKEAG-GIBBS--On February 26th, 1916, at Holy Trinity Church, Bath, by Preb. T.L. Sissmore. Jack McKeag, Chief Engineer, R.N.T., to Elvira, eldest daughter of Mr. and

Mrs. Chas. Gibbs, Parkhurst, Park Lane, Bath."

Jack McKeag died April 4, 1918: "McKEAG--April 4th. Engineer-Lieut. John Joseph (Johnny), the beloved husband of Elvira, and son of John and Annie

McKeag, 220 Wingrove Avenue, Newcastle. Burial Royal Naval Cemetery, Orkneys, with naval honours Sunday, April 7th, 1918. Late of Elswick Harriers. Deeply mourned by wife, parents, brother, and sisters."

http://bearalley.blogspot.com/2006/08/ernest-mckeag_17.html

[midsm]

Hi Don.

One more name to be added was my Grandfather; William Gardiner who was a survivor and was interned in Norway. I've posted info on the website (http://www.btinterne...ltrop/index.htm) and posted pictures at the camp.

Ian.

[Guest hbw]

My grandfather, Able Seaman George Ward,served on HMS India and was subsequently interned in Norway. Like some other internees, he was allowed to return home (to attend a family funeral), but was honour-bound to return to captivity.

[Guest RGA]

John Roland Anderson, (my grandfather) was another of the fortunate ones to make it to a boat. At first he was posted as "missing presumed drowned". For an account of the sinking see "The War at Sea" by Julian Thompson published by Imperial War Museum. However, the account here omits the internment of the salilors by the Norwegians and I have corresponded with the author who agreed to ammend subsequent editions.

There used to be the HMS India site on the web but this seems to be no longer on line?

My grandfather described internment as pretty ghastly - men were set to piece work; the camp guards were not friendly and several sailors went mad. My grandfather was granted leave to return to England December 1917 and he married his fiance by special licence on New Years Day 1918 before he returned to Norway till the end of the war.

[corisande]

Has the BTInterent site on the sinking of HMS India resurfaced anywhere. The link is "unavailable"

I have been researching one of the survivors Midshipman H R Jenkins. He was torpedoed again in WW2.

[midsm]

It's been some time since I've looked here and elsewhere for info on the India (my grandfather, William Gardiner) was one of the survivors sent to the camp. I have a fair amount of info from two gentlemen from Bodo who were researching the India and who had set up the website. I haven't been in touch with them for years and don't know why the site is no longer available.

From my Grandfather's recollection (he passed away in 1972) the camp was not a tough place; they were treated with respect and even had a football (soccer) team (I have a picture) and learned how to snow ski. I also have some info on U-22 which sunk the India.

[aradgick]

John Thomas Wells, 187563, survived the sinking of HMS India, but died of pneumonia on 20th October 1917. He is buried in Vestre Toten (AAS) Churchyard. There is a photo of his gravestone on the CWGC website here:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/54260/VESTRE%20TOTEN%20(AAS)%20CHURCHYARD

Andrewr

[Guest medalmal]

@medalmal

I collect medals and have been fortunate to get a WW1 1914/15 trio plus Royal Navy Long Service and Good Conduct medal which is named to HMS India. This has to be a rare beast indeed as HMS India was in RN service for such a short period of time before she was sunk.

The loss of the excellent website devoted to the sinking of HMS India and subsequent details of the survivors internment has brought my research to a grinding halt.

The medals I have are to:-

167866 John Thomas Wright. Born 10th July 1876 in Dorking, Surrey. He entered service in the Royal Navy on 10th July 1894 giving his trade as a labourer, as a boy 2nd class and signed up for 12 years service. After serving in numerous ships and shore establishments he left the service on 13 July 1906 as time expired.

He joined the RNR on 2nd November 1907, and then re-enrolled into the Royal Navy on 11th November 1911, seeing service on board HMS Mars from 2nd August 1914 till20th February 1914. A spell at HMS Pembroke till 18th April when he was posted to HMS India on 19th April 1915. His service record shows his time on HMS India cut short on 8th August 1915 when he is next shown on the strength of HMS Pembroke (probably for accounting reasons).

Interestingly, his service record shows him on the strength of Naval Party NP4105/15 "Interned in Norway", then invalided to England on 2nd February 1918 via Naval Party NP1952/18.

Can any members of the forum help to fill in the time spent in Norway by the men of HMS India. I realise there is some info on the forum and also on the web. Any help would be greatly received,

Regards

Medalmal

[horatio2]

Two corrections:

On being discharged on completion of his 12-year limited engagement he would have joined the Royal Fleet Reserve (RFR), not the Royal Naval Reserve (RNR).

NP4105/15 and NP1952/18 do not mean a "Naval Party" but are references to 1915 and 1918 communications from the Naval Personnel (NP) Division of the Admiralty.

[Guest Red90]

I do not know if anyone ever revisits this thread, but if so, my sincere thanks to previous posters. Edward Isaac Penton was my grandfather, and I have now gained some valuable information that had become lost to the family. He was a brave man, as well as an honourable one.

By the way, question to Tootrock of east Sussex: Pett Level? Edward Isaac was stationed there too.

RP

[tootrock]

Hi Red90

He did not serve at Pett Level.

I have sent you a PM.

Martin

[midsm]

I have recently received my Grandfather's (William Gardiner) service medals; Victory Medal, Service Medal and 1914-15 Star, as I said previously, he was a survivor of the sinking and was a Prisoner of War in Norway.

Is there a source to get background information as to when he joined up, what records his service number may be connected to, etc? (I'm trying to get as much info as possible on his time before the sinking)

Ian