Rifle Brigade service numbers

[chrrip]

Hi

Above RB numbers from MIC relate to a Pte Viney; believe he was embodied in Nov 14 having enlisted earlier that year age 45; do his army Numbers give any clues re Bttn eg and would he had prior RB service eg Boer war? seems odd to have accepted a 45 year old family man otherwise? many thanks Chris NB served salonika Nov 16 - Dec 18

[SteveE]

Ernie

Andy (stiletto_33853 ) will be your best bet for Rifle Brigade details but the second number suggests a 1917 Territorial Force renumbering. The Rifle Brigade's block of numbers (200001 to 300000) was allocated to 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25th Battalions.

Checking the LLT for these battalions gives this detail, the 22nd Battalion appears on the face of it to be a possibility...

"18th (London); 19th (Western), 20th (Northern), 21st (Midland), 22nd (Wessex & Welsh), 23rd (North Western) and 24th (Home Counties) Battalions

Formed in accordance with an Army Council Instruction on 29 November 1915. The Bns were made up of supernumary TF Companies, formed from National Reservists who were used for guarding vulnerable points in Great Britain. The Bns were posted for Garrison duty overseas in 1916. The 18th, 23rd and 24th went to India; 19th and 20th to Egypt. The 21st went to India via Egypt, and the 22nd Salonika via Egypt. The latter was attached to the 228th Brigade in 28th Division."

Hopefully Andy will be able to confirm one way or the other.

Regards

Steve

[chrrip]

Thanks Steve

Does look like 22nd since he was in Egypt beforehand

Chris

[stiletto_33853]

Ernie,

22nd RB, before the renumbering the Territorial battalions usedto go by battalion number. These battalions were managed by the London Territorial's and as such the medal rolls give theatres and dates. Find attached his medal roll.

Andy

[chrrip]

Many thanks Andy; did not know the London connection; so he joined 22nd presumably on formation; think he might have been a Devons Territorial beforehand; Chris

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Ernie,

The 22nd were formed on the 29/10/15 from drafts from the Devon, Hants, Dorsetshire, Wilts, Monmouth, Somerst and D.C.L. I.

The Battalion sailed from England on 3/1/16 in the "Olympic" transhipped at Mudros and sailed for Alexandria.

The History of the 22nd is the most interesting of these seven Terrritorial Battalion, for it is the only one of them which faced the enemy in the field.

If you need a further account of the units history let me know.

Andy

[chrrip]

hi Andy

An account of the 22nd would be most interesting; I am helping Viney"s grandson to research him - Hope to be able to get a copy of a letter about his experience in Salonika in a couple of weeks when my friends are back in the UK; Thanks again Chris

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Ernie,

These battalions had very little to do with the Rifle Brigade at all, not being managed by the Rifle Brigade, no men were transferred to them and were put under the Rifle Brigade banner by the then Director of Personnel Services of the War Office, as at the time the only Regiments with no Territorial affiliations were the Guards, Kings Royal Rifle Corps and the Rifle Brigade. The City of London Territorial Association agreed to assume responsibility for their administration and in December 1915 they were authorised to wear the Regimental badge with the shoulder title "R.B." surmounted by a "T"

22nd Rifle Brigade

The history of the 22nd Battalion is by far the most interesting of these seven Territorial battalions, for it was the omly one of them which faced the enemy in the field. It was formed on the 29 October 1915 from drafts of the Devon, Hants, Dorsetshire, Wilts and Monmouth Regiments and the Somerset and Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry; it completed its training in Halton Camp East. The Commanding Officer was Lieutenant - Colonel H. Curties, who had previously been employed as a Draft Conduction Officer.

The Battalion sailed from England on 3 January 1916, in the "Olympic," transhipped at Mudros and sailed for Alexandria. There they remained under canvas for three weeks, and during this time Lieutenant H. Martyn and Rifleman Smith earned the Royal Humane Society's testimonial for saving a life at Sidi Bishr, on 9 January. They then entrained for Cairo, where they were stationed in the Citadel, performing garrison duty.

At this point fate stepped in.

The Russians at this time were hard pressed in the Caucasus and, as the Gallipoli Peninsula was being now evacuated, it was necessary to draw off the Turkish reserves by the threat of a landing at Alexandretta. For this purpose Liuet.-Col. H. Needham, a Staff Officer at G.H.Q., Egypt, was directed to proceed with a battalion of infantry to Famagusta in Cyprus and there to make such preparations as might make it appear that the establishment of an advanced base for a large army was being undertaken.

The 22nd Battalion was the battalion detailed for this duty, and left Cairo on 22 April 1916, for Alexandria. There they embarked, eight hundred and forty-seven strong, in two ships with all due secrecy and all boats swung outboard in case of submarines which "were as common as sharks are in those parts." However, Famagusta was reached without incident, and after two or three days in camp there, half the Battalion was detailed to lay out a very large imaginary camp, clearing the ground, marking out the sites, and constructing regimental crests with stones. The remainder was moved very frequently from one place to another all round the island, selecting sites for camps, aerodromes, strong points and so forth, as well as finding patrols at likely landing places.

"I am afraid," writes Colonel Needham, "that the Battalion, who were completely ignorant of their object in life, must have considered us beyond the pale of sanity, as we managed to draw fifty to sixty thousand Turks from the interior down to Alexandretta, where they worked like beavers digging every form of known entrenchment for several months to no purpose."

(more to come)

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

In his Intelligence Report he writes: "22nd Bn. The Rifle Brigade have carried out their orders as given by me very well, especially as regards the old soldiers whose exemplary conduct and keeness in this work calls for much praise."

After six weeks in Cyprus, the Battalion again embarked, this time for Lemnos; they were stationed at Mudros till November 1916, again on garrison duty of an exciting nature, as the War Diary of the Headquarters Office, and the lack of Battalion Records, testify. But, on November 1916 the Battalion was reieved at Mudros by the 3rd Royal Marine Battalion, and sailed in the "Royal George" for Salonika, arriving on 26 November.

After a few days in camp the Battalion entrained for the Doiran front. Such a war was evidently a new and unpleasant experience. They arrived (says the diary, which starts here, though written some time later) at Tanes, and marched to Vergetor, where they pitched their camp in a sea of mud.

The Battalion was now under the Assistant Director of Works, 12th Corps, and worked daily on trenches and wire from 8.30am to 4.30pm, with an hour for lunch and one Sunday off every fortnight. So they continued till early in March 1917, moving on to Gramatna with a detachment at Kisimli. The Commanding Officer daily went to look at the work and in spite of the season the percentage of sick was only 0.58. The emn, says the diary with pardonable pride, were "exceedingly strong and fit": 75% were old regulars and their trades, miners, steelworkers, carpenters and the like, made them "well fitted for the construction of defence works."

On 8 Februarythe six Garrison Battalions engaged on entrenchments were formed into the 228th Army Troop Infantry Brigade under Brigadier - General Ross, C.B. Work continued, but a weekly rest was allowed on 18 February. Between 3 and 28 February the Battalion put up 10,076 yards of wire and dug 786 yards fire trench, 1,885 yards communication trench, thirty machine gun emplacements and twenty-five machine gun dug-outs, with other small works.

On 4 March 1917 work stopped. The Battalion concentrated at Gramatna and began training. After eight days training at Kirkus they moved via Snevce and Aracli to a bivouac at Sokolovo, suffering their first two casualties (two Riflemen wounded) from enemy air bombing at Arcali.

On 26 March they relieved the 1st K.O.Y.L.I. in the front line trenches. Colonel Curties had, unfortunately, been invalided just before and the Battalion was now commanded by Major Whalley, of 3rd Battalion King's Regiment, who in his turn was relieved by Lieut.-Col. H. Smyth, Cheshire Regiment, on 20 April. The latter, amongst other things, took steps to abridge the War Diary, to the regret of the chronicler.

The first relief in the line for a Brigade of Garrison troops was no easy task, and the Commander-in-Chief sent his congratulations to the 228th Infantry Brigade on relieving to time. Many new duties had to be carried out, such as daily patrols to Peros in No Mans Land, bombing and anti-gas training. One day (4 April) two Bulgarian deserters surrendered with arms, equipment and belongings; while on 12 April C Company's post was attacked, apparently without success, by enemy bombers. Scouting and patrol organizationcontinued to improve, though enemy shelling caused some of the patrols to be discontinued.

[stiletto_33853]

On 12 June 1917 a withdrawal from the low ground to a healthier and higher line was successfully carried out. The 228th Brigade was now part of the 28th Division, and held a line over 3,500 yards long, running south of the Struma about 12 miles east of Lake Doiran. They were still handicapped by having no transport or specialists, and were armed with single loading Lee-Enfield rifles, and had only four Vickers and eight Lewis guns in the Battalion.

On 29 June the Battalion was relieved by the 1st Bn. Welch Regiment of the 83rd Brigade, and made a six days march to Mirova for training. At Alexia an enemy aeroplane was brought down, and never more than three men fell out on any one day.

At Mirova they received the Ross rifle and were inspected by General Milne, for whose benefit the "Scout Grenadiers" gave a demonstration.

On 23 August they relieved the 6th Bn. Leicestershire Regiment of the 10th Division on the right of their old positions, and spent the next eight months holding various sectors in this area, with periods in brigade reserve at Turbes. The second winter, though far from pleasant, was far easier to endure than the first, for though the rain was no less, duckboards and good roads had lightened the labours of those at the front and at the back alike.

The short Lee-Enfield rifle had arrived in 21 September, and the winter was not without its incidents, notably the Christmas dinner, thanks to the Y.M.C.A., and the New Year's Honours in which the Commanding Officer received his D.S.O., and Major Hennessey, the Second-in-Command, the M.C. The Battalion raised for the War Loan £1087 10s from officers and £649 from others, a total better by £900 than any other unit of the Brigade.

In February a Rifle Meeting and Sports were held in the Sturma Valley - apparently in the snow - the former owing much to the O.C.'s interest in the competitions and to his wide experience, having been a well know shot in India pre-war days.

The Brigade moved further west in March and relieved the 2nd Bn. Cheshire Regiment at Todorovo, near their original sector. Much work on trenches was required after the winter: the old summer line at Bel Arbre was again occupied and patrols continued, though on 31 May they lost two men missing, the first to be lost, which cast a gloom over the Battalion.

And so on till the end of September. Events in this theatre of war were now beginning to stir, though there had so far been no move east of Lake Doiran, but on 24 September a move forward to the winter line was suddenly ordered. The Brigade was in strange company, with the 8th Greek Division behaving in a very foolhardy manner, so the Diary says, on their left, and parts of the Cretan Division coming up behind. Preparations were made to advance at once, but before a move had begun the news came that on 20 September the Convention had been signed with Bulgaria.

The 228th Brigade was disbanded on 2 October and the Battalion, six hundred and ninety-nine strong, sent by train via Saragul to Akindzali, where they worked, near their old front line, on the reconstruction of the railway.

By 17 December they had reached the base at Lembek, and were suffering from the influenza epidemic. Demobilization was soon complete, and on 29 January 1919 the details were transferred to the 2nd Garrison Battalion of the King's Regiment.

Hope this helps you Ernie

Andy

[chrrip]

Absolutely superb Andy, very many thanks; I'll be in touch if Viney's letters add anything of interest; Chris

[stiletto_33853]

Ernie,

Glad that it was of interest. There is an article covering all these Rifle Brigade Territorial battalions in the 1927 or 1928 Rifle Brigade Chronicle, cannot remember which one of the top of my head. This goes into more of the formation of the battalions but if you need it let me know.

Andy

[ddycher]

Andy

I am tracking some Devon National Reservists through the Supernumerary Coy's and into the 22nd Bn., Rifle Bde. Would appreciate any more info on the 22nd Bde. Your overview above has answered a mass of questions from their service records that I had not been able to resolve previously.

regards

Dave

[stiletto_33853]

Dave,

Glad that this has been able to resolve some of your queries on these men. Information on these Territorial Battalions is sparse, but the 22nd is one of the more interesting.The article in the RB Chronicles deals more with the formation of these units. What else would be of assistance to you regarding this battalion???

Andy

[ddycher]

Andy

Thanks for this.

I am looking to see how many of the officers from the Devons Sup. Coys ended up serving overseas with the 22nd. I also am finding that not all the Devons Sup. Coy men ended up in the 22nd Bn (I have refs to men serving in the 23rd Bn). At the moment my focus is the forming of the battalions and the demise of the Sup. Coys. That said until I read your post I had not been able to find anything on the overseas service of either the 22nd or 23rd Bn's and I would like to understand their overseas service experiences better also.

Any insights would be appreciated.

Regards

Dave

[stiletto_33853]

Dave,

I will see what can be done for you, and if you have the numbers and names of the men in the 23rd RB's I can certainly look them up for you as their medal rolls do have dates served overseas.

Firstly the 23rd RB's left no war diary but their Part I orders are largely preserved.

The 23rd (North Western) Battalion was formed at Halton by drafts principally from men of the King's Liverpool, South Lancs and Manchester Regiments, who previous to their transfer were guarding prisoners-of-war at the Knockaloe Camp in the Isle of Man.

It remained throughout under the command of Lieut.- Col. T.E. Turnbull, V.D., and sailing in S.S. Euripides from Devonport on 12th January 1916, proceeded via the Suez Canal to Karachi, where the battalion disembarked on 10th February.

Their history was an uneventful one, the Battalion was employed on Internal Security duties throughout its stay in India; first at Multan, where it was quartered in the Edwardes Barracks, then from 22nd July, 1918 at Bareilly in Clyde Barracks; one company was at Amritsar, according to the Indian Order of Battle, in May 1916, but there were no other detachments.

The Battalion was demobilised in India; by 12th July the numbers were reduced to fifty; on 25th October it moved to Sialkot and the cadre was not finally dispersed until 4th February 1920.

Andy

[Hywyn]

Andy

I have a number of North Wales RWF men from the Supernumerary Coys (esp 6th Bn centered on Caernarfon)who ended up in the 22nd Bn RB. I believe I may have touched on this with you before (some time ago now)but at that time it was early days in my research.

May I please copy the material in posts 8-10 for my research file? (attributed to you). I'm wondering why the RWF is not mentioned amongst the list of Regiments providing men.

I'll try and draw up a list of those positively identified in the next couple of weeks. The problem with searching through Ancestry of course is that they are mostly on there under their initial RWF numbers but I have recently come into material that will open up my research.

One such 22nd Bn man was Pte 535 George Haines whom I put forward as a non-commemorated.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=75228067

He transferred in on 2 11 1915. He was discharged in July 1916 having contracted Diabetes Mellitus whilst in Egypt.

Hywyn

[ddycher]

Andy

The officer who got me started on this thread was :

Edgar William Greenslade :

Born 1865. He was the pre-war Quartermaster for the 5th Devons. He joined the Bn as Q’Master and Honorary Capt. From the Hay Tor Bn at its est. on 1st April 1908

An Hon. Maj. from October 1910. He was sec’d at the beginning of the war until resigning his commission on 11th November 1914 when he moved the TF Reserve, general List and took command of No.6 National Reserve Coy, Devon TF at Exeter.

He joined the Rifle Be as a temp.Maj. on the 13th December 1915. I believe he went to India with the 23rd Bn but have never been able to definitively prove it. I also never really understood why he ended up in the 23rd and not the 22nd Bn.

He was gazetted from temp. Maj to Maj with precedence from 11th November 1914 in October 1917. Finally retiring from the 23rd Bn. Rifle Bde on attaining the age limit on the 9th July 1921.

Edgar Greenslade is the first officer I have been able to track through the Sup. Coys into the Rifle Bde. Other potentially into the Rifle Bde and then the RDC. A couple of others include :

1. Charles St. Aubyn Hawken (No.1 Sup. Coy) - todate I have not been able to place him in either Rifle Bde or RDC.

2. Maj. Leopold Agar Denys Montague (No.2 Sup. Coy)- todate I have not been able to place him in either Rifle Bde or RDC.

3. Maj. Edward Appleton (No.3 Sup. Coy) - to RDC (not thought to have served with the Rifle Bde)

4. Captain William Field (No.4 Sup. Coy) - to RDC (not thought to have served with the Rifle Bde)

5. Captain Arthur Edmund Spender (No.5 Sup. Coy) - todate I have not been able to place him in either Rifle Bde or RDC.

6. See Edgar Greenslade above

7. Captain James Calvert Hele (No.7 Sup. Coy) - to RDC (not thought to have served with the Rifle Bde)

8. Maj. Frederick Hector Henry Munro Arden (No.8 Sup. Coy) - to RDC (not thought to have served with the Rifle Bde)

A few other Devons I have transferring into the Rifle Bde include :

From 1/5th Devons :

1. Arthur Leslie Donaldson - possibly 13th Bn. Went onto serve with the Indian Army

2. Joseph Alexander Drummond Kirkpatrick - to 19th Bn. This believed to be in Egypt.

3. Pte Cecil Crockwell - commissioned into TBD Bn the Rifle Bde in India.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Many thanks.

Dave

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Hywyn,

Pleae feel free to use the material in the thread. These men are always difficult to track down in the records as you have found out. Let me know if I can help you!!

Andy

[Hywyn]

Thanks Andy

I'll make contact via PM in due course.

Hywyn

[stiletto_33853]

Dave,

Will see what I can dig up for you on these, as mentioned before the information is sparse regarding these Battalions.

Andy

[ddycher]

Andy

Many thanks. Appreciate you taking the time.

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Andy

Keep coming back to these battalions.

Now have men from the 2/5th Devons being transferred to the 20th GB Rifle Bde in Egypt in June 1916. Would seem that men left behind in Egypt in convalescence or hospital etc were transferred to the 20th Bn when the battalion was disbanded and the rest were posted to 1/4th or 1/6th Devons in Mesopotamia.

Any knowledge of 2/5th transfering into the Rifle Bde in Egypt at this time ?

Regards

Dave

[stiletto_33853]

Dave,

Sorry for the delay. The only 5th Devons I can find in the 20th are found in the attached medal roll. Looking at dates, as some of the battalion are shown, as the 1st entry, and then more with their old battalions, as per 7th Lancs Fusiliers for the bottom entry and your 5th Devons, these would appear to be the only ones, appear!!!.

Hope this helps you a little

Andy

[ddycher]

Andy

Helps alot.

If I am right these men were part of a group who were hospitalised when the 2/5th Devons were disbanded and were all transferred to the 20th Rifle Bde. I believe they were issued with original Rifle Bde numbers between 950 and 985. Most were quickly invalided back to the UK although I do have a couple which appear to have subsequently served in the 25th Rifle Bde. Few appear to have been left when the TF battalions were renumbered.

Many thanks for your help.

Regards

Dave