FOUND MEDALS

[Chris_Baker]

Medal Collectors keep more forgotten soldiers memories alive than the average person on this site

Genuine question. I do not collect medals and have no particular views for or against those that do. But how does a medal collector "keep soldiers memories alive" other than in their own mind / database / folder of information? Do you show the medals and info somehow? Where? In 30 years of interest in this subject I can't recall more than a very, very few occasions when a medal collector has exhibited their collection at any event or place I have attended. Interested to know what you do.

[mattgibbs]

Chris - Genuine answer -

I display my collection at events throughout the year, which I am invited to by friends and contacts, this includes some museums which have wartime memory open days etc, or such events as the Lord Mayor of Liverpool's event for commemorating the Poles who served with us in WW2.

Since my collection spans WW1 and WW2 it attracts interest from several angles.

I have also written in to the odd magazine over the last few years with snippets of info and have mentioned men I have researched. I can't take the collection wholesale of course, and as you say I suppose very few medal collectors exhibit their whole collection, even the Ashcroft Victoria Cross collection display at Spinks wasn't the whole collection

In 30 years of interest I'll be suprised if you've never seen or heard of anyone talking about their medals, or showing you some, or telling a tale about a regiment or ship their owner was in, and wasn't that sharing that person's memory? I hear about it all the time, perhaps its only collectors, and museum curators who talk about these things?

Regards

Matt

[dycer]

I don't see the need for Medal Collectors to defend their Hobby,if it is a requirement for hobby collection then why do adults collect stamps,old train sets,etc?

I suppose with old train sets they can join a Club and allow the trains to run again,probably in better conditions than when they first ran brand new.

Like Chris,I've been to WW1 get togethers,where "dusty" items of WW1 memorabilia has been on display.Displayed by people who have a genuine affection in their collection and try to project a feeling of deity for the original owner,be it an item of kit,Medals,etc.

To me the projection of personal feelings towards a man,who may have died in War or a long time ago,and who's remnants of kit or Medals has passed to a third person who speaks eloquently,of his given subject is false and always comes across as so.

But each to their own.

To add to Chris' question.I have immediate Family Medals and bits and pieces.I would be caught out in fine style,by the WW1 experts,if I displayed them and tried to bring my Relatives to life in a public arena,because clearly I would be tripped up factually,by a WW1 expert,when trying to describe their service e.g I would mispronounce a place name or get a date wrong.

I have thought long and hard about the subject but cannot reconcile it so I choose to listen to the impassioned experts,acknowledge their expertise but overlook their hollowness.

Go on Medal Collectors,when will my Firing Squad form up?

George

[Ken Lees]

Genuine question. I do not collect medals and have no particular views for or against those that do. But how does a medal collector "keep soldiers memories alive" other than in their own mind / database / folder of information? Do you show the medals and info somehow? Where? In 30 years of interest in this subject I can't recall more than a very, very few occasions when a medal collector has exhibited their collection at any event or place I have attended. Interested to know what you do.

I use the medals in my collection as props when I give talks and presentations on Great War subjects. I give talks to various groups including Round Table, WI, scouts, schools, etc. and each is tailored to the audience. What they have in common is the medals. The WI generally would not be interested in the "bombs and bullets" approach but are fascinated by the stories of local men and their families. The medals are a tangible link to the story and are passed around and discussed with interest.

I research the recipients and in some cases, publish their stories on my website (www.9thkings.co.uk).

I have a display that I put together for an event in Stoke organised by a Forum member (the speaker was a Forum member, too ). The display is aimed at those with perhaps a passing interest in the Great War and explains how to go about researching a relative. The display includes some of my medal groups which has prompted visitors to the display to ask what they are as "We have one of those at home in the drawer".

In the course of my research I contact many people, family history groups, churches, family members, and others who share my interest.

Other than that, I just like the shiny metal and the brightly coloured ribbons.

[liverpool annie]

Oh George !!!!!!!!

Who cares about pronounciation .... or dates .... or any of that stuff ??

I just love to look at them ... and feel them between my fingers and thumb ! I get quite " a high " looking through the Spinks catalogues

whether they are Crimean , Indian Mutiny, or Pip Squeak and Wilfred ...... ( Of course it can be boring to others when I wax lyrical about them !! )

Keep them Applejack ... if somebody else comes along with a family tie then sobeit ... in the meantime enjoy them and research them and love them !

Annie

[neiluwins]

Genuine question. I do not collect medals and have no particular views for or against those that do. But how does a medal collector "keep soldiers memories alive" other than in their own mind / database / folder of information? Do you show the medals and info somehow? Where? In 30 years of interest in this subject I can't recall more than a very, very few occasions when a medal collector has exhibited their collection at any event or place I have attended. Interested to know what you do.

In my mind a well researched single or group of medals with a folder of researched information is keeping a soldiers memory alive, a lot more so that the many many groups of medals that sit in the draw behind the sences of a museum or lost in the back of a draw of a great grandson who does'nt even know his great Grandfathers name (and when they are discovered lost in the back of a draw place them straight on Flea Bay for a quick £).

So how else do I keep the men in my collection memories alive... A large selection of my collection is available online in my collectors showcase (virtual museum) 24/7 on the British Medal Forum and can be viewed by a world wide audience.

I regularly display parts of my collection for my local family history group (and dont just display the "more Interesting" items like museums I often show the basic single victory medal with very run of the mill every day WW1 service details).

I also provide an article on a man from my collection in every issue of the monthly family history group Magazine and hadve over the years had many articles published in the local newspaper and try to send them an interesting story on the run up to rememberance day.

I have also been part of talks given to the WI and a couple of local school and displayed part of my collection to them.

I would say that my collection has been on view to the general public far more over the years than than 80% of the medals held at the local Regimental Museum.

Another thing to consider is that when I display my medals I try and put out as much information about the man behind the medals as possible where as museums, and i've visited many tend to put little more than a name under their medals on display some dont even do that! If you get a write up in a museum your a VC winner or performed amazing acts of bravery... where are the stories of everyday WW1 soldiers who did there bit survived if they where lucky to return home to land fit for heroes? There stories appear in my collection but you dont often see them in museums.

Neil

[LarsA]

The research I do on most of the groups I have collected are displayed on the British Medal Forum in my showcase, as are many others collection.

One group, soon to appear is a unique group to a swede in his WWI service. In the service museum, probably one pair among many. In my collection, they will be a focal point and probably a reason for a number of articles about swedes in british service WWI. Shall I feel bad about this as suggested by some previous posts?

Should all the medals offered by different auctions firms, dealers, ebay sellers. antique shops, flea markets, car boots sale world wide for just one year be offered to regimental and service museum during just one year, I guess most would be driven to fiscal despair.

Why not realise that we all have a contribution to make. The museums have an important part, but they just do not have the space or the funding to do justice to all they have. Collectors may sometimes "keep the lid on", but still reveal quite a lot of important research when the estate goes under the hammer. Those of us that do publish what we have and research hopefully also contributes, sometime to offer family reunites when groups have been parted by uncaring family members to others chagrin.

I had hoped it would be above this forum to be "collector slagging" or "museum slagging". We have different motives for our interest in WWI, but mutual respect would be somewhat nicer.

/Lars

[Old Owl]

The research I do on most of the groups I have collected are displayed on the British Medal Forum in my showcase, as are many others collection.

One group, soon to appear is a unique group to a swede in his WWI service. In the service museum, probably one pair among many. In my collection, they will be a focal point and probably a reason for a number of articles about swedes in british service WWI. Shall I feel bad about this as suggested by some previous posts?

Should all the medals offered by different auctions firms, dealers, ebay sellers. antique shops, flea markets, car boots sale world wide for just one year be offered to regimental and service museum during just one year, I guess most would be driven to fiscal despair.

Why not realise that we all have a contribution to make. The museums have an important part, but they just do not have the space or the funding to do justice to all they have. Collectors may sometimes "keep the lid on", but still reveal quite a lot of important research when the estate goes under the hammer. Those of us that do publish what we have and research hopefully also contributes, sometime to offer family reunites when groups have been parted by uncaring family members to others chagrin.

I had hoped it would be above this forum to be "collector slagging" or "museum slagging". We have different motives for our interest in WWI, but mutual respect would be somewhat nicer.

/Lars

Yes Lars, I agree totally with your mutual respect comment, and, having read all the dialogue from both perspectives feel that the person who started this 'conflict of interest' debate with a rather ill thought out comment, should perhaps take a little time to reflect before making such statements in the future. After all, we all share the same interest and should remember that. I believe that the aim of the Forum is to discuss and help each other in our interests and not to create conflicts. Its only a hobby after all!!

Robert

[Paul Nixon]

Genuine question. I do not collect medals and have no particular views for or against those that do. But how does a medal collector "keep soldiers memories alive" other than in their own mind / database / folder of information? Do you show the medals and info somehow? Where? In 30 years of interest in this subject I can't recall more than a very, very few occasions when a medal collector has exhibited their collection at any event or place I have attended. Interested to know what you do.

I have a handful of groups which I've written about and published on-line. Google on their names and you'll come to the site that tells their stories. As far as I'm concerned, publishing on-line serves two purposes:

1. It can alert a relative to their long-lost Uncle Jack's medals

2. Somebody with information about the soldier might contact me and help me paint a fuller picture

I only wish I had the funds to buy more.

[mattgibbs]

To me the projection of personal feelings towards a man,who may have died in War or a long time ago,and who's remnants of kit or Medals has passed to a third person who speaks eloquently,of his given subject is false and always comes across as so.

I choose to listen to the impassioned experts,acknowledge their expertise but overlook their hollowness.

Go on Medal Collectors,when will my Firing Squad form up? George

No firing squad here [!], interesting to hear another viewpoint aired, but I do feel its a shame [from your admission] that you don't think anyone can 'truly' feel emotion for the loss and great sacrifice undergone by so many of our forefathers who were killed wounded or died of disease or that if they talk about it it is false or hollow.

I agree with Liverpool Annie!

regards

Matt

[dycer]

Matt,

I lost two Uncles in WW1.

On the face of it I should be able to speak eloquently about them and their loss.Unfortunately I can't as I was born nearly 40 years after they were killed.

My point is,therefore,that one cannot hope to speak with feeling about a relative or some other third person whom we never met and to try and personalise such a talk is hollow.

I fully recognise that there are Forum Members who have personal memories of a Parent,Grandparent,etc who actually fought in the War and may be lucky enough to possess their Medals.It is unlikely,however,that the individual talked of his experiences to them whilst he was alive and to personalise things along the lines of "Grandfather,was an experienced Lewis Gun Sgt and would have killed a lot of the enemy" is making fiction out of a possible reality and something I would discount if I was in the audience.

George

[Old Owl]

Matt,

I lost two Uncles in WW1.

On the face of it I should be able to speak eloquently about them and their loss.Unfortunately I can't as I was born nearly 40 years after they were killed.

My point is,therefore,that one cannot hope to speak with feeling about a relative or some other third person whom we never met and to try and personalise such a talk is hollow.

I fully recognise that there are Forum Members who have personal memories of a Parent,Grandparent,etc who actually fought in the War and may be lucky enough to possess their Medals.It is unlikely,however,that the individual talked of his experiences to them whilst he was alive and to personalise things along the lines of "Grandfather,was an experienced Lewis Gun Sgt and would have killed a lot of the enemy" is making fiction out of a possible reality and something I would discount if I was in the audience.

George

George,

No firing-squad here either, but the more protracted this argument becomes the more hollow you sound, rather more 'half empty' than 'half full'. I think it is time to acknowledge that we have the same basic interest, but that we look at things from completely different aspects and as such should respect each others views without trying to shoot each other down in flames.

I had not intended to make any further comment following that made earlier, but I am saddened to see this topic careering out of control, yet once more. I think that Liverpool Annie's comments were spot on, from a collectors point of view. Well said, Annie.

Robert

[barrieduncan]

Sounds to me as if Regimental Museums are a complete waste of time. Maybe we should demand they are all closed down and have their collections distributed to private collectors where they will be looked after properly for posterity and be available for all to see.

[dycer]

Barrie,

Certainly not from me.

Museums have an important role and indeed can bring WW1 to life e.g. The IWM Somme Exhibit.

It's just the personal deity speeches that are cringe worthy,to me.

George

[Ken Lees]

Personal deity speeches? What tosh!

The world, and this forum would be a pretty miserable place if we tried to conform to dycer's view of how we should all remember.

Cringe worthy? How do you reconcile that with stating that the IWM Somme Exhibit "can bring WW1 to life"? What utter nonsense. The only thing alive in WW1 were the individual participants. And as you so eloquently explain, they've all gone, we didn't know them and never will. So how does an exhibition "bring WW1 to life"?

And how are we cringe worthy for attempting to understand their lives and the conditions they had to live in.

If "personal deity speeches" are "cringe worthy" to you, would it surprise you that some posters come across as intolerant whingers?

Just my opinion, of course.

[dycer]

Ken,

Each to their own.I was brought up to respect others opinions just as I hope mine are respected,although not necessarily agreed with.

I care little about individual experiences in the War but I recognize that powerful stories and images remain from that conflict,which if displayed and fully publicised by Museums,as an example, may inform today's and future generations attitude to possible war in the future.

If I may give an example.There are ongoing discussions going at the moment about the procurement and supply of equipment for our Service people in Afghanistan.What were the problems of supplying equipment to troops in WW1?Were there weaknesses in either the procurement or supply chain in WW1.?If so what was done to overcome these and could the present Government learn from WW1 lessons?If not, how was the Country able to supply the voracious appetite of the Military in WW1 when it appears to be having difficulty in supplying a modern army in Afghanistan?I fully acknowledge the technology advances since WW1 and a straight read across is wrong,but there may be lessons to learn.

George

[rksimpson]

Hi everyone

Having read through this thread I am a bit saddened and also amused by some of the comments. I you ask 100 people about this topic that has arisen, I think you would get 100 different, personal answers and all would be right for that person.

The original topic is a good question, and it is that person's choice as to what to do.

I think we all have the right to express our thoughts, but we also have the responsibility to respect other decisions and thoughts on this subject.

It was their sacrifice we should be reflecting on, no matter how small.

regards

Robert

[welshdoc]

Dam I just wrote a I think reasoned argument about the rights and wrongs of returing medals and collectors and I pressed the wrong button and deleted the lot. I will therefore cut to the chase.

Why not put them up for sale and tell the family( if they exist). If they are truly interesed they would buy them , you can then give the money raised to a suitable charity or simply give them the medals. At least you know they are wanted for the correct reasons.

[MACRAE]

Evil Macrae medals collector Dan speaks.

I have witnessed first hand what museums do with medals I was in the room when a lady phoned in asked if they would like her late husbands medals . The museum curator told her you would be better giving them to a member of the family as all we would do is place them in a drawer and that would be the last they would be seen. This is the first honest museum curator I have meet , I collect medals to Macrae I look after them and take them to clan events so people can see them if any one at these events prooved to me they was a relitive then I would hand them over. I have been given Macrae medals from families as in there words no point in them in a drawer when you can look after them better than we can or a MUSEUM there words not my words. I have meet other collectors who collect medals to there family name or regiments they study and from what I have seen they take more intrest in them. Collectors are Custodians of History .

Evil Collector Dan

[west coast]

its a bit of a minefield this topic, especially when it comes to giving an opinion. to me broadly speaking, medal collecting is like any other collecting hobby, be it beer mats , teapots ,whatever. its an owning thing [nothing wrong in that whatever]. i think its at odds with comments like, they are being saved for posterity etc. its been said numerious times in the previous posts "in my collection", as i said theres nothing wrong with that , my self ,i have a little collection of ww1 uniforms and bayonets etc. they are not medals but they belonged to somebody at that time. i don`t think anyone should have to make any excuses or whatever to collect what they want to. to finish i`ll mention that four years ago i was given my grandads qsa ksa, ww1trio, msm by a complete stranger [a collector of militaria] who i had only met once a couple of nights earlier. he wouldn`t take a penny from me for them.

mike.

[Jacksmum]

Hello,

I had my Uncle's medals and his sword from Sandhurst. The sword was a perfectly ordinary run-of-the-mill Wilkinson, and although it meants a great deal to the family, Museums were not really interested in it - very plain sword from a 2nd Lieutenant.

I then got in touch with his school and asked if they had a little Museum of "old Boys" and would they like to have the sword. Here is the rub, the school in question was a Public School and not a local one, but I do wonder if you could find somewhere smaller like Gladwell's school, or even one of those little museums in his nearest town who would be glad of the medals and the info you have been able to collect. Better perhaps than the IWM perhaps.

Yes, and the sword is now carried by the OIC of their Cadet Force at all of the School Parades.

The moral of the story is to find the right home for your medals

Regards, Jacksmum

[dycer]

I appreciate the Museum/Collector debate will run and run and never be resolved.

But my definitive view of the subject, from a Dictionary.

Museum-A repository of interesting objects connected with literature,art or science.

Collection-A number of pictures or other interesting objects belonging to one person.

George

[Ice Tiger]

....my definitive view of the subject, from a Dictionary.......

My definitive view, not from a dictionary:

Medals can only be owned by the person who they were awarded to. Anyone who has medals other than their own are just their custodians for future generations.

I admit I do not collect medals but have purchased a few as part of my wider collection; & yes, I have even purchased them from relatives at boot sales.

Andy

[dycer]

My definitive view, not from a dictionary:

Medals can only be owned by the person who they were awarded to. Anyone who has medals other than their own are just their custodians for future generations.

I admit I do not collect medals but have purchased a few as part of my wider collection; & yes, I have even purchased them from relatives at boot sales.

Andy,

I totally agree.

I have two Trios,belonging to Uncles,who were killed.

I confess I am a lucky custodian,because it is easy to understand,with their loss,their Medals could be easily have been disregarded,e.g."What's the point of giving me their Medals?It does not bring them back to life.!".

Collectors have a distinct role,both to service their own hobby and to preserve what may be lost.I suppose the test must be,will future Collectors look favourably upon WW1 Campaign Medals or disregard them in favour of more modern conflicts, because of the rarity aspect?

If a Family wish to dispose of Medals,and a Collector can offer them a good home then I have no problems with this.

I do have issues with a certain rich gentleman,who purchases gallantry Medals,for his own devices when clearly the depository for these Medals,is the Regimental Museum,assuming the Family no longer wish to retain them.

If we accept the Regiment is the whole being,its Museum is an embodiment of this,current recruits tour their Regimental Museums to gain an understanding of the values they are expected to live up to.Service, as displayed in examples of Campaign Medals,Bravery,as displayed in examples of Gallantry Medals.

As a WW1 Colonel wrote when writing a preface to the short History of his Battalion,in anticipation of a full one being written(to date it remains unwritten).

"When such a history is written,we will demand far more than actual facts as to time and place.We will want to know the thoughts and feelings which actuated the many divergent types which made up the composite whole-the Battalion.A history of this sort will be a real human document,and will make a lasting appeal to all who were ever connected with the 8th Royal Scots."

George

[Mark Abbott]

If you have no luck with the family, the RM Museum have fantastic Medal Room. They could well be interested. Better there than sold into the hands of a collector.

At least as collectors we remember EVERY man in our collection and research their service and their life both in and out of service. The RM museum may well be excellent; however I doubt they research every medal in their collection! Most medal given to museums simply end up as objects used to decorate a room!

How then, is giving the medals to a museum better than them belonging to a collector who will treasure and research them?

Mark