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Bayonet Identification


4thGordons
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I was just sent this photograph of a rather battered bayonet by a friend.

I suspect it may well be pre WWI but....

Can anyone identify the type. The scabbard looks to me like a German or Turkish type and the general pattern looks like Mauser pattern (M96?) bayonets (although the pommel looks very P1907). I have asked for muzzle ring dimensions etc and may get these at some point. The fact that the fuller goes through the point suggests to me that this has been shortened. Any suggestions appreciated.

Chris

post-14525-1255614788.jpg

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Come on now your the expert , I would not presume to try to answer, but it does look like a cutdown 1907. HAve you managed to read the markings on the blade.

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Come on now your the expert , I would not presume to try to answer, but it does look like a cutdown 1907. HAve you managed to read the markings on the blade.

Yes...and that is the problem!

I also think the muzzle ring is "higher" than a P07. I know the turks modified captured P07s to fit their Mausers (this required a different crosspiece) but.....

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Definitely NOT a cut down P.07, the hilt, although similar, is all wrong. Also as Chris says, the muzzle ring is too high. The dimensions of the muzzle ring will help, as will any decyphering of the stamps on the blade.

Apart from thos unhelpful remarks, I have nothing to add!

Cheers

TonyE

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Hmmmm see, that is what I thought - but are they all marked like this :lol: ?

post-14525-1255625511.jpg

EDIT: this was a REPLY to MuseumTom - not sure how it got above his? Mine is timed 2 mins after his too.... :wacko:

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Sorry, but my bayonet knowledge is not up to this one. If it is 1863 then surely it should have chequered leather grips?...and I cannot find anything that matches in appearance.

Time for a bayonet specialist.

Regards

TonyE

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I'm tempted to say 'Khyber Pass knock-off'.

Almost certainly! but fun.... and quite well done.

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4thGordons, are they really marked like that? If so that's incredible, or is it a joke? Its may be marked a.s.f.a usually if I am right.

Kind regards.

Tom.

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I would say that this is a seriously butchered Turkish Model 1890 bayonet for the Turkish 7.65mm Mauser introduced in that year. Muzzle ring diameter was originally 16mm, but could well have been reamed out for whatever weapon the conversion was intended for. The hooked quillon with a ball finial has been cut off. The original blade would have been 18 1/4 inches.

I can't explain the markings but a spurious Victorian marking could well indicate the involment of a N W Frontier tribal armourer! The use of the Austrian style frog stud on the scabbard was a feature of some Turkish ersatz bayonets. The original scabbard for the M 1890 was leather with steel mounts and an oval frog stud.

Mike

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I concur with the shortened Turk 1890 opinion. I have 2, and everything fits, except your spurious markings. Check the spine of the blade, both of mine have a crescent moon over a 6 pointed star. Perhaps whoever re-marked it missed scrubbing those. I would ignore the scabbard-they did pretty drastic things in their modifications, so pretty much anything goes. Apologies for terrible pics, but they are all I have on hand- closeup is what the left ricasso should look like.

post-38182-1255709677.jpg

post-38182-1255709687.jpg

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Could it be a Turkish bayonet which has been made using a recycled, reshaped British bayonet blade? The markings on the blade look original to me, is there anything on the other side?

Regards,

Stewart

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Could it be a Turkish bayonet which has been made using a recycled, reshaped British bayonet blade? The markings on the blade look original to me, is there anything on the other side?

Regards,

Stewart

Hi Stewart

This the other side of the blade. Sorry about the delay replying.

I am pretty sure the markings are NOT original however.... I got my mate to buy this for me for curiosity value (it was $15) and I will get it from him at some point and make further investigation once it is "in hand". At very least it will make an interesting talking point!

post-14525-1255882039.jpg

Chris

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Hello,

Thanks for the extra photo. The markings look good to me, although it is not always easy to tell from a photo! However, it would be strange to add a proof/viewing mark to a copy blade.

I still think it is a recycled old, obsolete British blade which has been reshaped and re-hilted.

Let us know what it is like when you get your hands on it.

All the best,

Stewart

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Gents.....

Firstly, the pommel, handgrips and crossguard not British... but Turkish : Model 1903 - long pattern : originally made for Turkey by Germany [Weyersberg, Kirshbaum & Cie - of Solingen.]

Second, the blade is a genuine British Army item : quite possibly one of the Lancaster type blades from the 1860's

The scabbard is either German or Turkish... cut down to fit.

Seph

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks TonyE.. its nice to be back on the air so-to-speak. I've been heavily involved in researching items for my WW1 reenactment unit, building/revetting trenches, so have not had all that much free time on my hands of late. The bulk of the hardwork is now out of the way, so I can start to divide my time as before.

Seph :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just an update:

I now have the bayonet in hand - close inspection revealed a small crescent moon on the pommel and a star on the scabbard.

In addition to the blade markings shown on the picture there is an "E" on the spine - all of which would support the above identification.

Thanks all

Chris

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  • 1 year later...

I concur with the shortened Turk 1890 opinion. I have 2, and everything fits, except your spurious markings. Check the spine of the blade, both of mine have a crescent moon over a 6 pointed star. Perhaps whoever re-marked it missed scrubbing those. I would ignore the scabbard-they did pretty drastic things in their modifications, so pretty much anything goes. Apologies for terrible pics, but they are all I have on hand- closeup is what the left ricasso should look like.

Nice clear view of the Ottoman script, but what does the year date work out to?

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Wow, what a blast from the past.! Nonetheless it is quite interesting to see some of these old threads resurface.

On the identification, my money's with the Hon. Mike_H (B.E.M.!) and NWhite esq. Obviously a cutdown Turkish M1890 that has been 'pimped' up.

Those spurious markings look just like those found on the 'Khyber Pass' copied rifles - gotta admit those guys are extremely 'creative' to say the least.

I'd lay London to a brick that this one came out of Afghanistan in the not too distant past. Maybe one of those 'bazaar bargains' that I keep hearing about.!

BTW Trajan - that date on the pictured ricasso is 1310 in the Ottoman calendar, which roughly translates into our year of 1894.

Cheers, S>S

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BTW Trajan - that date on the pictured ricasso is 1310 in the Ottoman calendar, which roughly translates into our year of 1894.

Cheers, S>S

Hi and thanks SS. I'm pretty new to the world of bayonet collecting... Silly me as I could (and should) have tried googling that date for a conversion. I enquired about this one because I have just bought what I now know to be (thanks to you all) a shortened 1890 bayonet with quillion and Osmanli script (not deciphered yet) and Islamic year date 1319 - which I DID google and found to be 1901-1902. It also has the ASFA mark on the pommel, showing it to be a 1920's or 1930's conversion. Guess I should get the Otto turkish bayonet book at some point to find out more!

BTW - I pick up bayonets when I can (not easy in Turkey -and they are not generally in good condition) and a month ago in Ankara I got a SMLE P1903 dated 1904 with an indian frog and scabbard - but here is the killer: the frog is marked 1 5 HANTS! As I understand it (from Google) the 1/5 Hants were in India all through WW I with deployment in Afghanistan in 1919. Wonder how this one got to Turkey? Somebody redeployed trom the 1/5 to the 2 Hants at Gallipoli?

Trajan

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