What date did conscription officially end?

[tjpatti]

Hi all,

I have a chap who turned 18 in late Nov/early Dec 1918 and who died in a military hospital in Belfast in Dec 1920. I can find no trace of him serving during WW1 although his death certificate says he was a soldier. Is it likely he would still have been conscripted when he turned 18 and sent with his regiment to Ireland or did conscription end on the same day as the war and he subsequently enlisted voluntarily?

Regards

Teresa

[centurion]

The legal power to conscript remained until some time in 1919, this did not necessarily mean that men were automatically conscripted after the Armistice. Its very possible your man had just been called up at the end but had not completed his training until after the Armistice. Many in this situation went to Germany to form part of the army of accupation, to Russia or the Baltic or to Ireland for the troubles.

[matthew lucas]

I had a family member called up in april 1919 when he turned 18 and a half, he was young enough to be caled up in WW2 as well

he served in the 2/KOSB and RAF

matt

[centurion]

The legal power to conscript ended automatically when the war was officially declared over (this was in effect written into the original legislation) not when the fighting stopped.

[centurion]

Matt further reading (of accounts of the demobilisation riots) suggest that although the power to conscript still existed it was not used after the Armistice. This doesn't fit with your relative being called up in April 1919. Could he have joined up voluntarily the first time? One could understand him perhaps saying later that he was conscripted - makes a good grumble after all - 'this the second ----ing time I've been conscripted'.

[matthew lucas]

possible i suppose, he was only in 5 months, dischaged due to sickness - silver war badge. born and bred in north wales, and ended up in the KOSB's all his brothers were in the RWF at one time or another

matt

[NigelS]

Matt further reading (of accounts of the demobilisation riots) suggest that although the power to conscript still existed it was not used after the Armistice.

although not proof in itself that there weren't further call ups after Armistice Day, Hansard offers further evidence in reporting the NAVAL, MILITARY AND AIR FORCE SERVICE BILL in March '19 ( http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons...9190306_HOC_297 search using November) which gives in a reply from Captain Guest:

'....I believe there are many, some anyhow, who think that compulsory service should have ceased on the Armistice day. [Cheers.] Then my suspicion was not an erroneous one. There is another section of critics who say that, if not on Armistice day, then certainly on the date of the declaration of the ratification of peace. I would submit in reply to both those critics that we have gone already a very long way in that direction. In the case of those who think it should cease on Armistice day, I will merely state the simple facts that no conscript has been called up since 11th November....'

NigelS

[Muerrisch]

At no time was conventional regular service for 7 years and 5 on the reserve suspended.

He could have enlisted thus.

[centurion]

although not proof in itself that there weren't further call ups after Armistice Day, Hansard offers further evidence in reporting the NAVAL, MILITARY AND AIR FORCE SERVICE BILL in March '19 ( http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons...9190306_HOC_297 search using November) which gives in a reply from Captain Guest:

'....I believe there are many, some anyhow, who think that compulsory service should have ceased on the Armistice day. [Cheers.] Then my suspicion was not an erroneous one. There is another section of critics who say that, if not on Armistice day, then certainly on the date of the declaration of the ratification of peace. I would submit in reply to both those critics that we have gone already a very long way in that direction. In the case of those who think it should cease on Armistice day, I will merely state the simple facts that no conscript has been called up since 11th November....'

NigelS

And the changes to the demobilisation process introduced by Churchill in Jan 1919 would have been inconsistent with conscription being used

[Graham Stewart]

Although all of my stuff is back at home I do have some Attestation documents relating to this subject. These belong to young lads conscripted at the end of the war, who never served overseas and are in UK camps. However there appears to be a situation wherebye the conscripts are being poached and persuaded to enlist into the Regular Army. The result from looking at their documents is that they are discharged in these camps one day and re-enlisted into the Regular Army the next.

[dycer]

I'm glad my Dad avoided all this kerfuffle,born on the 19th December 1900 as he was.

He joined his volunteer Battalion at the age of 17,it would appear with the intention of serving his Country when he was old enough.

His story was,he was on a train,with a cavalryman,sleeping above him,in the luggage netting.Unfortunately the cavalryman was wearing spurs,and Father did not get a wink of sleep in case the spurs descended.

He was recalled and sent home on the next available train.

George

[Esskay]

I had wondered about this in the past - and the final sentence from this page of the Long Long Trail led me to believe that it ended in 1918

http://www.1914-1918.net/recruitment.htm

"Conscription ceased on 11 November 1918 and all conscripts were discharged, if they had not already been so, on 31 March 1920."

Cheers

Sue

[tjpatti]

Thanks, everyone, for your helpful and interesting replies to my query. It seems I can make one of two assumptions: either my chap was conscripted right at the end of the war and chose to stay on in the army when the conscripts were discharged (presumably this was an option) or he enlisted for regular service into the army towards the end of the war or shortly after. I guess I'll never know for sure but I've learnt a lot from the replies my query has kicked up - thanks again.

Teresa

[centurion]

I had wondered about this in the past - and the final sentence from this page of the Long Long Trail led me to believe that it ended in 1918

http://www.1914-1918.net/recruitment.htm

"Conscription ceased on 11 November 1918 and all conscripts were discharged, if they had not already been so, on 31 March 1920."

Cheers

Sue

In Jan 1919, on Churchills instructions, a table was issued from which one could determine, based on ones date of conscription, when you could expect to be discharged. AFAIK this only ran up to Nov 1918. However as the original act specified that the powers to conscript ran until the war was officially over conscription could in theory have been applied until about August 1919. I suspect that initially this reserve power was thought useful in case a] Germany refused the peace treaty and war reemerged b] there was a Russian style revolution in Britain (a threat in many a politician's mind at the time) so no attempt was made to rescind the conscription legislation , it was just allowed to run out naturally.

[eltoro1960]

I have seen a couple of miners service papers where they deemed to have enlisted in 1917 and then allocated to work in their own coal mine. One was called up April,1918 however the other was December, 1918 and he was demobbed in the autumn of 1919.

Is it possible that Derby Scheme men were deemed to have enlisted prior to 11/11/18 and could be utilised after the end of the war?

John

[geraint]

The local tribunals were still sending men into the colours in November 1918.

[centurion]

The local tribunals were still sending men into the colours in November 1918.

After the 11th? Presumably any one in front of a tribunal in November had received his call up papers some time before. So an ancillary question is when call out papers ceased to be sent.

[Northern Soul]

Hi all,

I have a chap who turned 18 in late Nov/early Dec 1918 and who died in a military hospital in Belfast in Dec 1920. I can find no trace of him serving during WW1 although his death certificate says he was a soldier. Is it likely he would still have been conscripted when he turned 18 and sent with his regiment to Ireland or did conscription end on the same day as the war and he subsequently enlisted voluntarily?

Regards

Teresa

Is he commemorated by the CWGC? From the information you have given it would appear he should be and if he isn't then he seems a good candidate for consdieration by the IFTC project.

Andy.

[truthergw]

After the 11th? Presumably any one in front of a tribunal in November had received his call up papers some time before. So an ancillary question is when call out papers ceased to be sent.

This is a single case so proves nothing but I can vouch for its authenticity. My father was 18 in November 1918. He received his papers to report, appealed to the local tribunal and was granted a deferment for six months but was never called again. His birthdate was 5th November.

I have looked at Ilana r. Bet-El's book," Conscripts ". She is informative on dates of the various Acts of recruitment but vague on the last date. She defines a conscript as someone called up before November 1918. That implies that active conscription came to an end then but I have some doubts. The Army of Occupation was a sizeable body and I doubt if it could have been maintained without some degree of conscription. I am reminded of the fact that conscription after WW2 did not end on a specific date. It actually dwindled gradually as various classes of men became ineligible for call-up. Perhaps it was the same after WW1. Fewer men called and more exemptions and appeals allowed.

[centurion]

I am reminded of the fact that conscription after WW2 did not end on a specific date. It actually dwindled gradually as various classes of men became ineligible for call-up. Perhaps it was the same after WW1. Fewer men called and more exemptions and appeals allowed.

The legislation for WW1 conscription contained its own end date - ie the official end of the war. As it was enabling legislation there is no specific end date for call ups but obviously they could not take place once the enabling legislation had expired. There was the legal ability to call up in early 1919 the question is was this used? The occupation army was mainly made up by soldiers who had been called up late in the war and whose discharge date had been set by the schedule produced by Churchill in Jan 1919.

[eltoro1960]

Could be that although the fighting ended on 11/11/18 with the Armistice, the war was not considered officially ended until 28th June,1919 when the Versailles Treaty was signed, technically the Armistice was a cessation of hostilities.

In the highly unlikely event the treaty was not signed by the Germans the war would have started again and men would be needed. Maybe this was the date they were operating to despite putting most men on the reserve list.

John

[centurion]

Could be that although the fighting ended on 11/11/18 with the Armistice, the war was not considered officially ended until 28th June,1919 when the Versailles Treaty was signed, technically the Armistice was a cessation of hostilities.

In the highly unlikely event the treaty was not signed by the Germans the war would have started again and men would be needed. Maybe this was the date they were operating to despite putting most men on the reserve list.

John

Yes that's the point I made quite early in this thread and have been trying to make in various forms as it went on (see for example post 14). They kept the power to call up (no need to put men on the reserve list). It's whether they used it thats the question.

[truthergw]

Sorry Centurion, I missed that. That would make perfect sense. One of the things that comes across throughout the war from 1916 onwards is how much legislation there was concerning recruitment, how much of the various schemes overlapped and how much was abused, finagled and ignored. Because the tribunals were set up locally, they were open to abuse and the offer seems to have been taken up with alacrity.

[tjpatti]

Is he commemorated by the CWGC? From the information you have given it would appear he should be and if he isn't then he seems a good candidate for consdieration by the IFTC project.

Andy.

Hi Andy,

I'm not sure he qualifies for consideration by the IFTC project as he died of natural causes i.e. a pancreatic cyst and asthenia. I don't have his service record (which I don't know how to go about getting if it still exists - it's not on Ancestry and I have been advised that approaching Glasgow may be a big waste of time) but I do have a copy of his death certificate and I think the MoD at the time (or whatever title they went under) didn't feel he was a candidate for commemoration by the CWGC since he lies in an unmarked grave in Rippleside Cemetery, Barking, with his mother and a random individual who was interred in the same grave 30 years later. However, I would be delighted to be proved wrong!

Regards

Teresa

[Northern Soul]

You said his Death Certificate states that he was a soldier and that he died in a military hospital. If so, then this should be sufficient evidence, because whether he died from natural causes is irrelevant - all serving military personnel qualified irrespective of their cause of death (assuming thier death occurred within the qualifying dates). Suggest you contact John Hartley on this forum.

Best wishes.

Andy.