Cheshire Regiment

[Christopher M]

I have these two books:

The History of the Cheshire Regiment in the Great War

Arthur Crookenden

A general history.

War History of 6th Battalion : The Cheshire Regiment

Compiled from the battalion war diaries by Charles Smith.

I'll be happy to do look-ups.

Christopher

[Chunkeroo]

Hello Christopher

I would be grateful if you could check whether there is any mention of any of the following men:

Pte Alfred E SOULS 21525 11th Cheshire

L/CplArthur W SOULS MM 21683 16th Cheshire

PteFrederick G SOULS 21686 16th Cheshire

Regards

Clare

[Brigantian]

Christopher,

A long shot I know, but is there any mention of a Sergeant Francis Gautier, 11 Battalion, Cheshire Regiment?

Thanks

Mark

[Christopher M]

Clare,

Unfortunately, it seems a soldier had to be an officer with at least three christian names to get mentioned in war diaries and general histories, so I'm afraid the brothers you are looking for are mentioned only in the honour roll.

Checking the dates of death in the CWGC records does, though, result in something which may be of interest. We can apparently pinpoint the action in which Frederick George Souls was killed quite precisely. There was fierce fighting around Waterlot Farm, between Guillemont and Delville Wood on the right of the British line during the Somme offensive. The book devotes two entire pages to this action. The fighting mainly involved W and Y companies, with the rest of the battalion in support, and lasted from 16th to 19th July 1916. CWGC give Frederick's death as on the 19th.

If the details are of interest, please send me your postal address by email and I'll send you a photocopy.

By 1918 the smallest units that get much attention are brigades and divisions, so there's very little about the 11th Battalion at the time of Alfred Souls's death. On the 13th April the 11th were involved in the defence of the ridge between Kemmel and Cassel. It appears that a number of units were prety much obliterated, as between the 13th and 16th the 7th and 75th brigades (including the 11th Cheshires) were formed into the 7th Composite Brigade. On the 16th they withdrew to Mont Noir in reserve. It's rather sketchy, but it appears they didn't return to major action until the 26th. Could Alfred have been wounded during the ferocious fighting on Kemmel Ridge, and died a few days later?

I gather from this web site that the 16th Battalion was disbanded on 6th February 1918, over two months before Arthur William Souls was killed. I'm afraid I can't find out which battalion he would have been transferred to.

I'm sorry there's nothing more specific about these men, even when one of them won the MM. I'm afraid that priorities and sense of justice were very different in the 1920s and '30s when these books were compiled.

If there's anything more I can do, please let me know.

Christopher

[Borden Battery]

Hello Christopher ... I have a question regarding the brave actions of the Cheshire Regiment which assisted the 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade in a very costly stand against the Germans in March 1918. I have included an extract from the 1CMMGB War Diary and would be interested in what you might be able to add regarding the Cheshires.

Fri., Mar 22, 1918 VERDREL, FRANCE - Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael)

Fine

Works on Emplacements continued.

Orders received from O.C. Canadian Corps M.MG. Brigade to "Stand by" and prepare to move.

Battery ordered out of the line, arrived in Camp about 2 a.m. 23rd inst.

Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly, M.C. Returned from Can. Corps Gas School.

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly, M.C.

Sat., Mar 23, 1918 VILLERS-BRETONNEUX, FRANCE - Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael)

Fine

Battery left Camp about 5:30 AM. in convoy with the Canadian Corps Motor Machine Gun Brigade and proceeded to VILLERS-BRETONNEUX by way of ST. POL, DOULLENS and AMIENS arriving about 5 p.m.

At 9:30 p.m. Orders were received to "Stand by" and at 11:30 p.m. Battery moved off and proceeded to CORDIE, under Command of Capt. W.C. Nicholson, M.C., Lieut. F.G. Waldron and Lieut. R.H.A. West on arrival at CORBIE, about midnight.

Capt. Nicholson reported to the 7th Corps.

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly, M.C.

Capt. Nicholson called up Lieut. Inch who had been back from the line with the men and the armoured cars. Inch was to try and get a message back to headquarters asking for immediate reinforcements. The message ran:

0. C. CDN CORPS MMG BDE

CIO 7th CORPS

Battery in position (sheet 62c) H5a 5050. 1 am in command of both machine-guns and infantry. We have only four guns left which are being manned; others captured or out of (action) order. Capt. Holland wounded. Lieuts. West and Waldron killed. Lieut. Snyder killed, wounded or prisoner. All my NCOs in Borden ('C') Battery casualties except one. I have only six men left. 'B' Battery has two NCOs, six ORs and one officer left. Both our flanks are in the air and we are being shelled by all calibres, snipers and machine-guns are busy. Enemy took Clery this a.m. about 9:30 and we are fairly well consolidated in an old trench 1000 yards west of the village. Here the infantry are being relieved tonight but no word of relief for us. Enemy aircraft are active. We have only one tripod left. Troops broke and ran this a.m. Great difficulty to rally them. One motorcycle blown up. Cars intact, also solos. Supply of ammunition short. No bombs or flares.

Weather good. Strong east wind. Very misty and many grass fires make it smoky, observation poor as consequence.

No support troops in evidence. Men in fair shape considering all but would heartily appreciate a rest.

Cars at Maricourt cross roads. Presence of Motor cars and our men undoubtably saved situation somewhat. Capt. Holland did mighty fine work.

W.D. Nicholson Capt.

O.C. Borden M.M.G. Balleo,

3:55 p. in. 24-3 - / 8

by dispatch rider

Am trying to get in touch with Brigade but no answer yet DMGG and staff probably captured.

W.C.N.

Sun., Mar 24, 1918 VILLERS-BRETONNEUX, FRANCE - Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael)

Fine

About 2 a.m. Battery proceeded to MARICOURT and came under the Orders of the 21st Division arriving there about 6 a.m. Orders were received to proceed to CLERY, and from there at 7:15 a.m. arrived at Support Line in H.4.C. Sheet 62© at 8 a.m..

A heavy smoke Barrage was blowing form the East, but not evident hostile activity. Two guns were placed in CLERY Village under command of Lieut. R.H.A. West, shortly after the Enemy broke through on our left flank and overran the Village.

One (of) our guns was blown up and the crew of the other completely killed or wounded, one officer, one N.C.O. and one man remained, they managed to save a Tripod.

The remaining guns were placed on the MARICOURT-CLERY Road in an old shallow Trench with no wire in front. This trend was on the forward slope of the Ridge, observation was good, and as good targets were constantly presenting themselves our Guns created great havoc.

We held this Trench until 1 p.m. during which time our Casualties were exceptionally severe. Lieut. F.G. Waldron and Lieut. R.H.A. West were killed by enemy snipers, they being very active, causing many casualties.

Our Guns kept up harassing fire until our Supply of ammunition became exceedingly low. There being a Trench 50 yards to the rear, behind a stronger line, the Guns were withdrawn to this stronger line.

Casualties were continually being received during the whole afternoon. Until 5 p.m. we had only 3 guns (1 out of action) Capt. W.C. Nicholson, one N.C.O. and two men.

We had been reinforced about 11:30 o'clock by the 15th Cheshires, 35th Division, and we arranged with them that we should hold the line until 8 p.m., but the Enemy attacked in force on our left flank, and at the same time on our front in mass. We were compelled to withdraw, but not before we had poured a terrible fire in the close Enemy Ranks.

While proceeding down the Road near Hemp Dump Capt. W.C. Nicholson was hit in the arm by a ricochet, and forced to leave the Line.

The remainder of the Battery, Sergt. A. Peek and two other Ranks were instructed to report to D.M.G.C. 35th Div., and were then given instructions to return to Brigade H.Q's VILLERS-BRETONNEAUX arriving about 3 a.m. 25th inst.

During the latter part of the afternoon 8 O.R.s, who had been assisting out wounded, attached themselves to "B" Battery, and were joined later by 13 O.R.s under Sergt. C.D. Salkeld, who had arrived as reinforcements.

The Party rested at BRAY overnight.

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly, M.C.

Mon., Mar 25, 1918 HÉBECOURT, FRANCE - Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael/Mars)

Fine

Details attached to "B" Battery in the line, went into Action during the day patrolling the Roads in Armoured Cars.

At about 5:30 p.m. Orders were received to move Head Q'rtns to HÉBECOURT, leaving at 6 p.m. and arriving at HÉBECOURT about 8:30 p.m.

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly, M.C.

Tue., Mar 26, 1918 HÉBECOURT, FRANCE - Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael/Mars)

Fine

Party in the line with "B" Battery continued using the Cars for sniping work during the day, at 3:30 p.m. the Cars withdrew out of action and returned to CORBY, rejoining the Brigade at HÉBECOURT about 2:20 a.m. 29th inst.

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly , MC

After dark, Lieuts. Lynch and Green joined the others of 'B' and 'C' Batteries at Corbie. They spent the night in this village, a few miles behind the shifting front line. About 9:00 a.m. of this day, Walker sent the following pencilled report to Brutinel covering the Brigade's action up to March 25th:

Heavy fighting continues but the enemy is not gaining much ground. Everywhere he is meeting stubborn resistance from our troops. Reinforcements for the infantry are quickly arriving which gives some rest to the infantry that have been fighting day and night for five days. The infantry in some instances were exhausted with the result that at times our batteries were not supported by them as well as I would like, but taking all circumstances into consideration all that has been done that is possible.

Captain Meurling with 'D' and 'E' Batteries is still in action on the Roye--Nesle road and continues to do good work. I was with him at 3:00 p.m. yesterday. There was little shelling but a great deal of rifle and machine-gun fire. His casualties have not increased much since my last report, and he has been reinforced with two guns and 100 belts and belt boxes, today I will reinforce him with personnel.

Lieut. Inch with 'B' and 'C' Batteries have been withdrawn from the fight. A report dated 25th, time 9:00 p.m. says "we are in reserve with the 35th Division" and "everything organized again ready for action." These two batteries have had heavy casualties.

'A' Battery at the present time commanded by Sergeant-Major O'Brien has been withdrawn from the fight and is at the present time with Brigade HQ. This battery has had hard fighting and done well.

The enemy strongly attacked Villers-Carbonnel about noon yesterday and here the armoured cars were hotly, engaged. I am sorry to report that Major Battersby, their commander, was killed and Lieuts. Adams and Cuttle were wounded. The armoured car with Major Battersby was captured after the whole crew were killed. Later, Lieut. Smith who was slightly wounded brought back the remaining three cars.

The battery is now reorganizing. Brigade Headquarters has moved back with the Fifth Army. Fifth Army is at Drury and Brigade HQ at Hébecourt.

I am attending a conference at Villers-Bretonneux at 11:00 a.m. today.

Seven officers and 35 ORs have arrived as reinforcements. Others will be welcome if they are available.

I am in a position to draw plenty of new guns and belts, etc.

As far as / can figure our casualties up to the present time are eight officers and eighty-two other ranks.

W.W. Walker Lt.-Col.

Lynch pp72-75

Wed., Mar 27, 1918 HÉBECOURT, FRANCE - Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael/Mars)

Fine

In reserve at HÉBECOURT.

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly , MC

Thu., Mar 28, 1918 HÉBECOURT, FRANCE- Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael/Mars)

Dull with rain

In reserve HÉBECOURT

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly , MC

The Canadians in Carey's Force had been in the line about three days. To give them some relief', Walker ordered Capt. Meurling and his group to replace Lieut. Smith. Meurling's men were not happy at the prospect. They had been promised that they would be sent back to the Canadian Corps. Wrote Meurling:

Instead of this, however, we received information on the 29th that the Boche had advanced further between the Luce and the Somme. I was then ordered to take what was left of the Eaton ('D') and Yukon ('E') Batteries and, with two cars of the Motors, hurry up as soon as possible to Gen. Care headquarters west of Villers-Bretonneux.

I arrived there about 3:30 p.m. and after a consultation with Gen. Carey and Col. Harvey, his Chief of Staff who gave me an absolutely free hand in everything pertaining to machine-gun work, I placed the guns as follows: I had 16 guns with me and posted four underLieut. Black on the heights east of Hamel; four under Sergeant-Major Forest at the crossroads about one-Nada-half miles south of Hamel; ten under Lieut. Campbell on the main road just west of Marcelcave; ten under Lieut. Marshall on the heights above Aubercourt; and four guns east of Villers-Bretonneux on the main road. That made 32 altogether, as I had scraped up another l6 from among stragglers and the infantry. I also collected enough men to man all the guns with two men per gun.

With this augmented fire-power Meurling's Canadian force now had the machine-gun strength of half a fully-equipped division. By 7:00 p.m. Meurling had replaced Lieut. Smith in the line. Enemy attacks on the positions held by Carey's Force continued during this day. In the morning Marcelcave had to be abandoned but despite repeated attacks, the area around Hamel, on the left side of the line, was held.

Lynch p94

Fri., Mar 29, 1918 HÉBECOURT, FRANCE- Ludendorff Offensive (Operation Michael)

Changeable, rain in A.M.

In reserve HÉBECOURT

The following Officers have been posted to this Battery.

Lieut. J.M. Pebbles

Lieut. A.E. Millward

#2069, Sergt. G.W. Cummins, Wounded in Action, while serving in the line with "B" Battery.

--- signed Lieut. F.P. O'Reilly , MC

[egbert]

Christopher,

I'd be grateful for any look-up concerning fighting/action of 1st Cheshire Rgt, 9-14 Nov 1914, nearby Gheluveld/Flanders; thanks

[John_Hartley]

Christopher

Apologies for going a bit off-thread - but if you ever come to want to sell your 6th Bn book, please let me know. I've searched long and hard, without success, to get this "home town" book. I'm presuming this is the 1932 book that's usually described as being written by members of the "old comrades association"?

John

[Andy Shaw]

Christopher,

Would be interested if there is any information relating to my Great Uncle, Richard Davies, whose details are listed in my signature.

Regards

Andy

[Christopher M]

Andy,

Your question was of particular interest, as your great uncle was in the same battalion as my grandfather, who survived the war. He joined up sometime in 1916, and was in A company.

I'm afraid that, as usual, there is no reference to your great uncle. There is, though, this account of the action in which he was killed. If you'd like information on any other actions, let me know.

The Battalion moved up on the night of July 30th, and assembled in X Lines, La Brique, for the attack. One officer, 14 other ranks were wounded during the assembly, which was completed by 1-30 a.m. An account of the engagement, written by Captain F. Naden, the Adjutant, who commanded the Battalion after Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Stanway was wounded, states :-

----

Twenty officers and 600 other ranks assembled at English Farm at 1 a.m., in preparation for the advance at zero hour, 3-50 a.m., for the village St. Julien and the Arbe Ridge, which were to be taken at 11-5 a.m. This was done, and everything was in order. The barrage came down at 3-50 a.m. prompt, and the advance commenced. On arrival at the Boche front line the casualties had been fairly heavy, but the advance was maintained. The Steenbeek was crossed at 10 a.m., and the Battalion was reorganised for the final objective, intermittent fire being maintained while this was going on. At 10-30 a.m. the advance continued, and the final objective taken at 11-5 a.m. punctual, but at a terrible cost. There where two officers and fifty-seven Cheshires, eleven Black Watch and eight Hants left out of sixty officers and eighteen hundred men.

The total advance was three miles from the first objective.

The Cheshires were ordered to retire 500 yards to connect with the 10th Liverpool Scottish on our right, the eleven Black Watch and eight Hants being the only troops left in the 118th Brigade.

The total prisoners taken weretwo officers and 101 men.

A post of the 6th Cheshires was established in the centre of St. Julien.

----

Capt. Frank Naden (now Brevet Col. Naden DSO MC) received a further decoration for the gallant part he played in this engagement : "He went among the men, cheering them up, assisted wounded, organized and took forward parties under heavy fire, regardless of danger to himself, and at all times was ready to render assistance in any way. He afterwards took over command of the Battalion and brought them out."

Christopher

[Christopher M]

Egbert,

There are a few paragraphs describing the general conditions and type of fighting around Ypres, but here are the specific details of action at the time you've asked about.

Christopher

--

Ypres 1914

Up to the 10th November, the front was unusually quiet. The First Battalion had moved up to Ypres on the 7th and was holding trenches just south of the 6th kilometre stone on the Menin Road.

Between the 5th and 10th, Captain G. B. Pollock-Hodsall, of The Suffolk Regiment, and 2nd/Lieut. G. R. L. Andersen were killed while gallantly leading a counter-attack against some Germans who had penetrated our front. Twenty-five prisoners were taken, but we lost 36 N.C.Os and men killed and wounded. No drafts had arrived since Violaines, so it was with very considerable difficulty that the Battalion held the 350 yards of front allotted to it.

Nonne Bosschen, 11th November

This battle marked the final attempt of the Prussian Guard to break through to Ypres. They fought under the eyes of the Kaiser in this supreme effort to drive the "contemptible British Army" into the sea.

At 5-30 a.m. on the 10th, "the most terrific fire that the British had yet experienced broke out". The First Battalion diary records the bare fact, and goes on to say that "the enemy appeared to be massing in a wood south of our position, but our shells scattered them, and they were easily repulsed by our rifle fire, with heavy casualties to them." Our fire did much damage to enemy attacking the Gordons on our flank.

Other troops had more severe fighting, and the break through of the Prussian Guard was only checked by the gallantry of three weak Scots Battalions called the 1st (Guards) Brigade, and the King's Regiment and the Duke of Wellington's Regiment.

...

On the 14th of November, we lost Lieut. H. R. Stables, Royal Fusiliers, killed amd 2nd/Lieut. E Glan wounded, as well as 30 N.C.Os and men killed, wounded or missing. Between the 5th and the 20th of November, that is during this period in the salient, the 1st Battalion lost 35 killed, 99 wounded and 65 missing.

On the 21st the Battalion was relieved and went to Locre. The Brigade war diary records "Cheshires only 230 strong, suffering very much from swollen feet and knees and rheumatism, but none from chest complaints, or colds, or coughs. But they cannot get their boots on after the march in and many are quite crippled".

Only three officers were present at duty when the Battalion left Ypres and went to Locre.

--

[John_Hartley]

Christopher

I think the extarct you have given for the 1/6th on 31/7/17 is from Crookenden, isnt it?

Just wondered if there's anything more detailed in the Battalion history or is it much the same thing.

Somewhere, the "search" facility will find a thread of mine (months ago) asking if anyone could pinpoint "English Farm". Someone did - there's a map which may be of interest.

The write-up on my website for the one man in my part of Stockport who was killed is here

John

[Andy Shaw]

Christopher,

Thanks for the additional information, according to his mic Richard Davies first saw service from July 1915, I have not yet been able to see if his service record survived and no one in the family has any information about him. He is commemorated on the Macclesfield war memorial. Does Crookendens book give as much detailed information about the 6th Battalion as Charles Smith book does?

Thanks

Andy

[John_Hartley]

Andy

As you'll have seen, I've asked Christopher the same question, in relation to 31/7. In my view, the general picture is one of swings and roundabouts. The Battalion history usually offers the more detailed picture, but Crookenden can put an attack in the wider context. When I was researching Dunning, I used both, but only have my notes from the Bn history, rather than a full extract.

(Christopher - any chance you could post the full extract from the 6th's book)

John

[Christopher M]

John and Andy,

Sorry for any confusion. I should, of course, have specified the source. I'm afraid I'm completely new to this and learning as I go along.

The extract was, in fact, from Smith's War History of the 6th Battalion. The corresponding extract from Crookenden is below.

I'm afraid I don't have access to, and have never seen, the actual Battalion diary, so I can't make any comparison with that. The obvious difference between Crookenden and Smith is that, excluding rolls of honour, the former has 231 pages covering the 14 battalions which saw action, while Smith has 44 pages plus 15 pages from two personal diaries purely on the 6th.

I would say that Crookenden is very much a history of the war, with individual battalions popping up only when something really significant happened, while Smith gives at least some idea of what the battalion was doing throughout the war.

As an illustration of this, Crookenden has index entries for the 6th battalion only for the following dates:

Aug 1914

Nov 1914

Jul - Sep 1916

Oct - Nov 1916

Jun - Oct 1917

Mar 1918

May - Jun 1918

Sep - Oct 1918.

Even within these dates, there is no continuous coverage of the battalion; only of individual actions as the occur. He also provides more "colour" material, giving occasional descriptions of what it was like to serve in the conditions of the time. In general, Crookenden is more narrative, while Smith centres on dates, times and places.

Both Smith and Crookenden are equally capable of omitting details which the other seems to regard as crucial, and which give completely different impressions of the same action!

Regards,

Christopher

--

Extract from Crookenden for the battle of Pilckem, 31st July to 2nd August:

The 6th Battalion (118th Brigade) followed the attack, moving N.E. from Wieltje on St Julien, in reserve to their division. About 10 a.m. they passed through the leading troops on a line beyond the Hannebeek, including St. Julien.

The advance proceeded steadily in a terrific downpour of rain, and passing through St. Julien, the 6th Battalion captured the final objective, known as the Green Line, some 1,100 yards north-east of St. Julien. Patrols were pushed forward to Tirpitz Farm about 300 yards on, occupied it, and formed a defensive flank.

Unfortunately the troops on our right had not advanced with us, and had been held up short of St. Julien. Consequently, a large gap appeared on our right. The enemy was not slow to take advantage of this, and an attempt was made to turn our right flank, causing us many casualties. Simultaneously, a number of the enemy in front, who had surrendered, took heart and picked up their rifles. A hand to hand combat of a desperate nature followed. Our men were fighting not to be cut off; the Germans to save a desperate situation. On top of all came down a heavy German barrage. A heavy German counter-attack developed from the north on the battalion on our left, the Hertfordshire Regiment, which having lost all its officers, was forced to withdraw. A gallant counter-attack by the Cambridgshire Regiment held up the Germans, and gave our men a chance of withdrawing. The whole line fell back slowly, fighting stubbornly, to the St. Julien line, along the east bank of the Beek which was reached by about 5 p.m.

Heavy shelling marked the rest of the evening in which our guns, owing to the general confusion, caused us many casualties.

The casualties were very heavy. Captain Jack Lee, M.C., Lieuts. G. Cowpe and W. E. Rogers were killed, amd 193 men killed or missing; 12 officers and 269 men wounded.

Captain Frank Naden brought the Battalion out of action. He had played a conspicuous part in the attack.

[egbert]

Ypres 1914

Up to the 10th November, the front was unusually quiet. The First Battalion had moved up to Ypres on the 7th and was holding trenches just south of the 6th kilometre stone on the Menin Road.

Nonne Bosschen, 11th November

This battle marked the final attempt of the Prussian Guard to break through to Ypres.

Other troops had more severe fighting, and the break through of the Prussian Guard was only checked by the gallantry of three weak Scots Battalions called the 1st (Guards) Brigade, and the King's Regiment and the Duke of Wellington's Regiment.

Christopher and all:

here is a hard nut to crack! According to below depicted map from 11.11.1914 1st Cheshire did not fight the Prussian Guard as suggested but they were the direct opponents of my Granddads Regiment 49. The Prussian Guard was located north of road Ypers - Menen.

Also at 11.11. 1914 they were not fighting in Nonneboschen, because N. is farther north , across the road Y.-M.

Also the diary excerpt I have from 1st Chechire (WO/95/1571) never mentions Nonneboschen, but only speaks of location "Ypres" and "in trenches". Can we solve the discrepancy?

[egbert]

And here is the excerpt I mentioned:

[Christopher M]

Egbert,

I don't think there's any real conflict between versions. Both the war diary and Crookenden say the 1st Cheshire were in the line south of the Menin road, and that enemy troops were seen massing in woods to the south. I would assume that these were making a diversionary/support attack to the main assault by the Prussian Guard north of the road.

Both versions describe the action in which the Cheshires were involved, and Crookenden goes on to say the main fighting was elsewhere:

"...the break through of the Prussian Guard was only checked by the gallantry of three weak Scots Battalions called the 1st (Guards) Brigade, and the King's Regiment and the Duke of Wellington's Regiment"

Your map shows the 1st Scots Guards opposite the Prussian Guard.

A marginal note on the diary extract you have shown names the 1st Bedfordshire. 2nd Bedfordshire are shown on the left of the Cheshires on the map you've given, so they more or less agree here. Crookenden also mentions the Gordons being the subject of the attack from the Germans in the wood, so they must have been south of the Cheshires to their right. Unfortunately your map doesn't go this far south.

Nonne Bosschen is the name given to the action/battle honour in general. It shouldn't be taken to imply that all units involved were actually in that place.

Therefore I'd conclude the Cheshires were opposed by the 49th, and involved in action with units to the south - the Gordons on the allied side, and an unknown unit on the German side.

Remember that, at the time of writing, neither Crookenden nor the soldiers writing the battalion diary probably had very little idea of who they were fighting.

I hope this helps clarify who was involved in what during this action.

Regards,

Christopher

[kingsman64]

Hi Christopher,

Thanks for your kind offer.

Any mention at all of 72101 Sgt Jack Stewart Read 9th Battalion Died 29/04/18?

Jack was a transfer from the Devons and I am led to believe that a letter from the Padre to the family said he was killed in his sleep by a long range shell falling behind the lines. I am wondering if the Padre was applying a bit of artistic license!

Thanks in advance.

[egbert]

Christopher,

This is a possible explanation; so I still take it: the 1st Cheshire was the direct opponent of my Granddads IR 49!

[blue]

Hi Christopher Could you look up the wereabouts or action the 6th Cheshires were involved in on the 22 September 1917 Particulary any reference to Nathan Sandbach 49853 who was killed that day and is buried at Reninghelst cemetery

Many thanks Blue

[John_Hartley]

Blue

SDGW records Nathan as "died of wounds" on 22/9/17.

One can never be certain about DoW but I guess he will have been wounded during the previous two days when the Bn was in action.

Crookenden describes the 20th September:-

"The 6th Battalion was in reserve to the 118th brigade. The front of this attack by the second Army was from the Ypres-Comines Canal to just south of the Ypres-Roulers railway.

One of the 6th battalion, under 2nd/Liet W D Riley, attacked in the afternoon under orders of the 41st Division and succeeded in gaining with great gallantry its objective, a German strong-point near Basseville Beek. here it held on all night. In the morning it was found that troops on both flanks had failed to come into line and flanking fire from both sides compelled the company to withdraw."

There were 50 fatalities on 20/9, 4 on 21/9 and, on 22/9, nathan and one other DoW.

John

[blue]

Many thanks John . Blue

[Christopher M]

Blue,

This action is also covered in Smith's history:

After a short spell at Kempton Camp, Westoutre, the battalion assembled in Shrewsbury Forest as reserve to the 117th Infantry Brigade. The assembly was completed by 2 a.m. on September 20th. Two companies were in the forward position abd two companies in reserve to the 17th King's Royal Rifles. At 7-40 a.m. one of the two latter companies moved forward to reinforce the 17th K.R.R., the second company moving forward shortly afterwards to reinforce the left flank.

One of the other companies, under 2nd Lieut. W. D. Riley, was sent forward to take part in an attack by the 41st Division. They advanced with the greatest gallantry under machine-gun fire and ultimately captured the objective - the Green Line - at 7-10 p.m. Unfortunately, owing to the Division on the left being held up the company had to withdraw to re-establish contact with the right flank of the 41st Division.

On the night of the 22nd the Battalion moved to reserve trenches near Larch Wood.

---

Christopher

[Christopher M]

John and Andy,

Regarding the battle of Pilckem, 31st July 1917, I overlooked a passage from one Smith's appendices. The book includes extracts from the diary of Sergeant James A Boardman, who served throughout the war. It appears that during the latter part he was a first-aider, and this is his entry for the action of 31st July.

Regards,

Christopher

July 31.

We arrived at Irish Farm in the early hours of the morning and took up our position in the front line. About 3-50 am, the barrage started. Soon after our lads moved forward in the mist. The stretcher bearers moved forward as best they could. We had a lot of stuff to carry—dressings, stretchers rations, and water. As we glance around we see our fellows being blown up on all sides.

We eventually establish our Aid Post in what was called the Black Line. There are dead and wounded all over the place. The din is terrific. We are kept busy all the morning. Prisoners are arriving in hundreds, and we make them carry away our wounded. In the afternoon we move further ahead to a place called Corner Cot. It was hard work gctting the wounded away as we had neither bearers nor stretchers and dusk was beginning to fall.

Later in the day our lads had to retire and we also were told to retire. But what could we do? We had about thirty badly wounded men, both British and German. We decided to stay on and to try to get the wounded away. To make matters worse it began to rain.

About 3-30 a.m. on August 1st Captain Naden gave us a call and explained the position. Eventually we got some prisoners and improvised stretchers out of overcoats and rifles, getting all the wounded safely back to our own lines. The German wounded all the tine we had them with us said we were “best comrades”.

The remainder of the day was very busy, as there was one continual stream of wounded coming in. Just outside the place we had made into an Aid Post was a battery of German guns.

The wounded as they came in were in a pitiable plight, being wet through and covered with mud. It was evening before we got clear of the wounded. We had to send for our bandsmen to act as stretcher bearers, and some of these were killed and one or two captured by the enemy.

Shelling was very heavy all the day and night. The enemy got a direct hit on our Aid Post, but it stood the test.

August 2.

With the first streak of dawn casualties again began to roll up. We were able to keep clear as we had a better service of bearers. The rain was still coming down in torrents. This put a stop to the operations.

August 4.

Odd casualties still coming in – teeth chattering and nearly famished. In the evening we are relieved.

[John_Hartley]

My post of 28/4 mentioned someone posting a map of the attack area. It also identifies Corner Cot mentioned in Boardman's account.

Found the thread now, it's here