Question on 1914 Enfield

[Guest]

Thank you for the information I appreciate it, ok now the one thing it's missing is the bolt action. I do not see one the receiver ring. There is a part on right side that looks similar to the hammer on a pistol I'll provide picture. It moves forward and back.  I imagine that's the safety. On the right side of buttstock there is what looks like a HE circled and less than a half inch under that incan make out the letters PAT.... Should i clean it to bring it out more

[4thGordons]

 

Ah... so the bolt is missing - that is really a pity. How is the bore? easiest way to check is to hold the rifle up and point the muzzle towards a light source while looking down the barrel from the rear. Given the state of the rest of the rifle I would run a couple of dry patches through it first just ot clean out any dust and debris. You want to see nice shiny smooth metal with clearly defined sharp grooves.

 

Bolts can be found (I have a couple), but they will be mismatched and will need the services of a qualified gunsmith to ensure the headspace is correct if you were to wish to fire the rifle. Even with an installed bolt the rifle is much reduced in value as an artefact (although it may shoot well if safe, in good condition and correctly set up!)

 

The stamp on the side will say IE over Patt 14 - standard mark. IR= Remington IW=Winchester IE=Eddystone

Patt 14 is the model

There should probably be a broad arrow too somewhere.

 

I would not clean it more. Missing the bolt the rifle has really significantly decreased value and is primarily of interest to folks like me! It could be restored to shootable status (assuming bore etc is good) but it will not be all matching which is a major negative

 

The small lever you show is indeed the safety - if you rotate it back you will see it "raises and lowers" a catch into the boltway which would lock the rifle on safe if cocked and prevent it from cocking if not. The peep for the volley sight will be on the other(left)  side (I mispoke in the previous msg) its a small (@2" arm with a peep hole in the top which can be rotated upwards)

I am a little surprised that there is no * obvious for as late a production as I think this is.

 

The rifle looks incredibly dry and dusty. Is it possible it is an Afghanistan bring back or some such? (if there are no import stamps on the rifle (caliber, model, country of origin) it came into the US pre-1968 or by unofficial means!)

The other markings are standard UK instpection stamps - the E on the handguard ring indicates Eddystone. so I suspect the rest of it is matching too.

Chris

 

 

[Isaac]

Just bought myself a P14 my very first rifle ever from what I’m hearing it has the fat boy stock is an Eddystone and was used in both World War I and II as the volley sights have been removed and it has the * but all numbers are matching and it shoots beautifully I paid $650 Canadian for it if anyone could give me more info on it I would greatly appreciate it the serial number is 609423 thanks again

[Isaac]

[Isaac]

[4thGordons]

OK so you have a Pattern 1914 (E) MkI* (later renamed Rifle No3 MkI*)

It is indeed in the "fatboy" stock (without grasping groves) and has the "4th variation" receiver body (this is what the 2 means!)

 

Regarding the removed volley sight; the rifles went through a checking process when they were removed from storage and prepared for use in WWII - where they largely served with the LDV/Home Guard ... this process/format  is known as the Weedon Repair Standard (WRS) after the depot that did a lot of the work.  If you look on the underside of the stock you might see a star stamp and a letter indicating which depot did the work.  This is the format the vast majority of P14s are in, even those which were sent to India directly. Lots of these have shown up in the US in the last 10 years. The plugging of the unit disc inletting looks like the style used on several Indian rifles I have.

 

Your rifle 609423 is interesting because the serial number falls outside the recorded range of rifles accepted by the UK (inspectors reports are in the Ministry of Munitions documents held at the National Archives at Kew)

The last Eddystone rifle accepted in late June 1917 was 604940  which would appear to be some 4,483 ahead of yours.

I saw another "out of range" serial number on another board recently too.

I don't have an explanation for this!

 

Does your rifle have the standard British inspection/acceptance marks on the right side of the receiver rail?
 

 

Chris

[Isaac]

Wow thank you so much for all of that information very cool that it falls outside of the last accepted rifle and yes it has the markings on both the side and top 

[4thGordons]

33 minutes ago, Isaac said:

Wow thank you so much for all of that information very cool that it falls outside of the last accepted rifle and yes it has the markings on both the side and top

 

See now that is odd and makes me doubt my records!

If it has been proofed and inspected and accepted (as the markings show yours has) it should be recorded. The only thing I can think of (pure speculation) was that there might have been a later batch that somehow missed the accounting process (perhaps made up of parts on hand as the production lines were being switched over to M1917s?)

Chris

[Buster0083]

Hello 4thGordons or anyone else that might be able to assist - I've just bought a Remington P14 that I won't be able to pick up until next week, so I'm trying to do some research in the meantime. It's serialed 308984 - would you happen to have an idea when that was built? 

 

Thanks very much.

[Buster0083]

On 26/07/2019 at 15:27, Buster0083 said:

Hello 4thGordons or anyone else that might be able to assist - I've just bought a Remington P14 that I won't be able to pick up until next week, so I'm trying to do some research in the meantime. It's serialed 308984 - would you happen to have an idea when that was built? 

 

Thanks very much.

 

Well that took a bit longer to get my hands on; if anyone can be of assistance with parsing the numbers on it I'll post some pictures that show them - but here's my Remington P14 that I'm ecstatic to take possession of.

[4thGordons]

Apologies for the delay responding - circumstances beyond my control.

If you remove the upper handguard you should see that the rifle barrel is dated.

In this case I believe it should be dated 1917 as if I am reading my notes correctly that serial falls into those accepted week ending 17th of March 1917.

Are the volley sights intact or is it WRS format?

Chris

 

 

 

[Buster0083]

Hello Chris,

 

Thanks so much for that - no apology required! The stamp is indeed 1917, and the volley sights are still there. If it's of interest I'll shoot and post a couple of pics from the other side too. I've had it out to the range now, I was surprised by the accuracy - was shooting 1-2MOA all day at 100 and 200m. 

[KnottySergal]

I picked this up the other day and it was sold to me believing it was a .303 but I got home and tried to load and feed .303 and it would not. I found it actually is chambered in 30-06. This has caused a bunch of controversy in a group I am part of where they believe it is a garage gunsmiff bubba special. But I believe it is a converted rifle done in factory. Can anyone help me out?

 

I would upload higher quality photos but the site won’t let me. The rifle is in shockingly great condition. 

[4thGordons]

As far as I know no Pattern 1914 (No3MkI) rifles were officially converted from .303 to  30-06  so - to the best of my knowledge -- IF this is a conversion then it was an unofficial one.

The barrel is dated 1918 and carries the US mark (flaming bomb) - 1918 is well after the cessation of P14 production

ERA rifle 15007 would have been accepted by British inspectors in July 1916 according to the Ministry of Munitions tables (obviously way earlier) so how it comes to be fitted with a barrel of that date and chambered for 30-06 is puzzling.

If official (using up an old receiver) for US service - there is no way P14 furniture would have been used (with volley sight etc) in US service

So - some questions:

Is the rear sight serial numbered to the rifle and how is it graduated ie what are the numbers on the scale (pic would be good)

Is the bolt numbered to the rifle (I suspect not)

The rifle furniture has clearly been refinished so while it is in nice looking condition that needs to be borne in mind. (markings on the side of the butt are erased and the unit marker disc has been filled) Also on the first and third pic in your sequence you can see that the magazine well is proud of the wood which also shows something has gone on.

If you want an opinion based on what you have posted - this, for my money, is an unofficial re barreling but I will withhold judgement until I get more details.

Chris

Edited 4 March , 2023 by 4thGordons
typo/grammar

[KnottySergal]

4 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

As far as I know no Pattern 1914 (No3MkI) rifles were officially converted from .303 to  30-06  so - to the best of my knowledge -- IF this is a conversion then it was an unofficial one.

The barrel is dated 1918 and carries the US mark (flaming bomb) - 1918 is well after the cessation of P14 production

ERA rifle 15007 would have been accepted by British inspectors in July 1916 according to the Ministry of Munitions tables (obviously way earlier) so how

So - some questions:

Is the rear sight numbered to the rifle and how is it graduated ie what are the numbers on the scale (pic would be good)

Is the bolt numbered to the rifle (I suspect not)

The rifle furniture has clearly been refinished so while it is in nice looking condition that needs to be borne in mind. (markings on the side of the butt are erased and the unit marker disc has been filled) Also on the first and third pic in your sequence you can see that the magazine well is proud of the wood which also shows something has gone on.

If you want an opinion based on what you have posted - this, for my money, is an unofficial re barreling but I will withhold judgement until I get more details.

Chris

Here is the rear sight. The bolt has nothing on it but a small “E” on the under side. I also just noticed that the stripper clip guide has been removed. 

[Mattr82]

P-14 rifles are wonderful to shoot. An often overlooked piece of history in terms of rifles. I have one and I enjoy shooting it 👌

[4thGordons]

On 04/03/2023 at 13:29, KnottySergal said:

Here is the rear sight. The bolt has nothing on it but a small “E” on the under side. I also just noticed that the stripper clip guide has been removed. 

This shows that the rear sight was replaced. This is an M1917 sight (200-1600yds) for the 30.06 (the P14 sight graduations are further apart and go to 1650, p14 sights are also serial numbered. For shooting purposes this is good because it is correct for the ballistics of the 30.06

Nothing conclusive but I see nothing to indicate this was an official conversion of any sort. My bet would be that a surplus P 14 was converted to 30.06  P14/M1917 actions because of their strength and availability in the US were used as the basis for all sorts of wildcat conversions and calibres and as 30.06 has always (generally) been more available in the US than .303 (which was not scarce by any means until recently) I suspect that is what might have prompted the conversion. Another possibility is that this was the conversion of an Ex Indian DP (Drill Purpose) rifle (many of which had a drilled chamber) - quite a lot of these came into the US in the last 20 years and this might have been a way of restoring a rifle to usable condition (converting to 30.06 but utilizing the rest of the rifle) I saw one where this was done in 7mm Mauser.

All of this is supposition of course.

I cannot think of any situation where a P14 would officially have been converted from .303 to 30.06 either in the British or US context.

My P14s

 

P14, SMLE, 1903, M1917