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Question on 1914 Enfield


coppertales

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I understand that P-14 rifles with original volley sites can be found but are expensive. Does anyone know what the cost of a P-14 with volley sites would be?

That is going to depend very heavily on: 1)where you are (country) and 2)the overall condition of the rifle.

Chris

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Hi Chris,

I understand there can be many variables for determining the value of a firearm, especially one as unique as a P-14 with volley sights. Could you give me an average value for this rifle in good to v good condition either in the mid-west or on the east coast?

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I understand that P-14 rifles with original volley sites can be found but are expensive. Does anyone know what the cost of a P-14 with volley sites would be?

Hi Chris,

I understand there can be many variables for determining the value of a firearm, especially one as unique as a P-14 with volley sights. Could you give me an average value for this rifle in good to v good condition either in the mid-west or on the east coast?

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If I were you I would have a look on GunBroker or Auction Arms - you can usually find examples if you check back every so often.

P'14 prices are all over the place and so are the conditions of the rifles so I am hesitant to suggest even a range - they don't seem very consistent at all, generally they are cheaper than M1917s but in about the same ballpark, I suspect that you would be looking at $450-$650? more for really good examples. Having the volley sights on does not seem to command a significant premium in the US market.

Warning - some of the P'14s you will see for sale are rebarreled Indian DP rifles (they still have the 1" hole in the stock!) and some have had the volley parts "restored".

Chris

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I understand that P-14 rifles with original volley sites can be found but are expensive. Does anyone know what the cost of a P-14 with volley sites would be?

It depends where you are in the world.

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Hi

Dont know what ower Freinds over in the U.S pay ( proberly a lot less than we do) But Here in the uk a p14 matching numbers with its volley site costs from most militeria dealers around £450-525 but deactivate ! ?

Bought one a couple of days go would like to post some pics and see what the experts can tell me about it !

Regards

Nick

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Finding an unsanded , matching , orignal finish Patt'14 that is not WW2 or otherwise rebuilt is very hard. I have turned down stupid money for my gorgeous matching example. I have yet to see another in anywhere near as fine condition over the years. And brother can patt'14 rifles shoot !.

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I have a 4 number eddystone I picked up. Unfortunately it is sportered. Looking for a stock and handguards

Pretty easy to find actually although varying in condition

Beware misdecribed M1917 wood and, Indian DP sets. The latter are often sold without comment or clear pictures but you will find the upper handguard and the stock have a big (+ 1" )hole cut in the right side of them where the chamber was drilled. This is usually neatly done but fairly obvious!

For a low number Eddystone you would probably want the "fatso" stock without the grasping grooves - these might be harder to run down.

Chris

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I have one located and also most of the parts. Not sure of the condition but it is most assuredly a p14 stock as it has the old volley dial. The sportered stock has a stock disc on it though so I may try to transfer it over. Not sure if it is a fatso or not as they are using a "stock" stock foto. Number is era 8037

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RAF COS (Cosford? or is it a G, so RAF GOS? - nothing springs to mind for that) WWII Issue (Oct 1941)

It appears a number of P14s were issued to the RAF. I have one marked to RAF Feltwell.

I don't see the * mark on the chamber here - does this mean the rifle is still in MkI format (with smaller bolt lugs/shallower recesses in the receiver?)

Chris

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  • 11 months later...

Hello, This is my first post, and as you can guess I am asking for help, Yesterday I went to Sheffield and picked up a beautiful mature lady, a Eddystone P14, in a Fat boy / Fatso stock with all matching numbers,

I was hoping that someone could help me with a date of manufacture, and tell me what city in the USA Eddystone's were made. The serial number is ERA521343..

Thanks in advance.

Henry

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I was hoping that someone could help me with a date of manufacture, and tell me what city in the USA Eddystone's were made. The serial number is ERA521343..

Henry,

Welcome to the Forum, and enjoy your new ' Eddystone ' rifle.

The Eddystone Rifle Works were located in the town of Eddystone, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., originally in the former Baldwin Locomotive Works, which was then substantially enlarged in 1915.

Regards,

LF

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If I am reading MUN 5/189/1400/21 correctly

Eddystone Serial number 521343 was accepted by British inspectors in August 1916 probably in the week ending August 19th.

Chris

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  • 3 weeks later...

I had the rear hand guard off my Winchester P14 lately as I was considering selling it, I was happy to see matching numbers on the barrel.

This is a Mark 1 that has the original bolt, interesting in that its an early one?

WP_20150723_12_50_03_Pro_zpsbgym9u1o.jpg

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  • 11 months later...

Hello. I just aquired a M1917 Sports with the Serial Number ERA 710464 with a Bolt Serial 165473.

 

Would like to know more about this if anybody could help :) Thank you very much :)

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13 hours ago, Icyred64 said:

Hello. I just aquired a M1917 Sports with the Serial Number ERA 710464 with a Bolt Serial 165473.

 

Would like to know more about this if anybody could help :) Thank you very much :)

Hi Icyred - Welcome to the forum.

 

I am a bit confused. When you say an M1917 Sports do you mean a US M1917 that has been cut down and "sporterized" (removing part of the stock etc to make it a lighter hunting rifle) or is it a Remington Model 30 (which was an M1917 produced in three "sporting" formats from 1921-1940?

 

As it has an ERA stamped receiver I am assuming it is the former. However, this is a little unusual as a British Pattern 1914 rifle (in .303 British) would usually be stamped ERA / Serial  (and probably aslo an asterisk)  whereas an M1917 (in .30-06) would usually be stamped EDDYSTONE. US Model of 1917 and then the serial

 

So the first question is - do you actually have an M1917 (in .30-06) as you say or do you have a British P14 (in .303)? This is obviously going to be important!

 

Are there any other markings on the rifle (for example the receiver rail on the right side?)

Does the rifle have the original rear sight still attached? If so what is the highest number shown on the graduated scale and is it also serial numbered?

 

Pictures might also be helpful.

Chris

 

 

Edited by 4thGordons
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11 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Hi Icyred - Welcome to the forum.

 

I am a bit confused. When you say an M1917 Sports do you mean a US M1917 that has been cut down and "sporterized" (removing part of the stock etc to make it a lighter hunting rifle) or is it a Remington Model 30 (which was an M1917 produced in three "sporting" formats from 1921-1940?

 

As it has an ERA stamped receiver I am assuming it is the former. However, this is a little unusual as a British Pattern 1914 rifle (in .303 British) would usually be stamped ERA / Serial  (and probably aslo an asterisk)  whereas an M1917 (in .30-06) would usually be stamped EDDYSTONE. US Model of 1917 and then the serial

 

So the first question is - do you actually have an M1917 (in .30-06) as you say or do you have a British P14 (in .303)? This is obviously going to be important!

 

Are there any other markings on the rifle (for example the receiver rail on the right side?)

Does the rifle have the original rear sight still attached? If so what is the highest number shown on the graduated scale and is it also serial numbered?

 

Pictures might also be helpful.

Chris

 

11 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

 

 

 

 

Hello. So here is some pictures.

 

The barrel does say .303 BM so i just assumed its a .303 british.

Their is no brand on it. But like previous pictures on here that has the ERA stamp on it. Mine is the same. Above it is stamped ERA and right under that 710464 but then when i was cleaning the bolt i noticed it had a different serial number. 165473. with no other markings. What i had read is any .303 1917 that has the stamp ERA was a Eddystone. Thats as much as i got so far. that is why i joined this site to get more information. Do you want pics of all the odd markings ect... on the gun... lots of odd designs and markings that look military ect on the barrel and action. I dont know much about rifles so i was just going with what my friend that told me after seeing these pics.

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OK so yes that clears things up.

It is not an "M1917" it is a British Pattern 1914 (P-14) MkI*  later referred to as the No3 MkI*.

So my confusion was your terminology that is all - it is not a "M1917 in .303" it is a Pattern 1914, which preceded the M1917

 

The quick and dirty background is that Britain was working on a new rifle design just pre war and produced the Pattern 1913 trials/pre production rifle using an experimental new calibre cartridge which was giving some trouble. When war broke out this development was stopped. When there was a shortage of rifles the UK placed orders for the new rifle, rechambered to standard British .303 to be produced in the US by Winchester, Remington and Remington Eddystone Arms (ERA). There were delays on these contracts and some initial difficulties so by the time they were online the dire need had passed. Most P14s like yours went straight into store in the UK (some sent direct to India, some used in training units) The MkI * (the asterisk on the barrel) indicates a modification to enlarge the lugs on the bolt that was introduced early in the production process.

Somewhat fortuitously - just as the US was entering the war in April of 1917 the British contracts were ending so the 3 production lines were re-tooled to produce the rifle, once again rechambered for a different cartridge (this time the US .30-06 round) and huge numbers were produced in 1917/18 as the US .30 Model 1917. Many, probably a majority of the AEF in Europe were armed with the M1917. One little known oddity is because of this rechambering and the slimmer but longer dimensions of the .30-06 the M1917 can actually hold 6 rounds (although it was loaded with chargers/stripper clips of 5)

In British service the P14 - like yours - were brought out of store in the late thirties and modified slightly (by removing the long range volley sight) in preparation for secondary issue during WWII.

 

It looks like your rifle also went through the British civilian gun trade at some point (the nitro-proof marks on the left side of the barrel)

If you look at the rear sight this should also be serial numbered.

I'll check the lists I have and see if I can work out the production/delivery date of your rifle.

 

Chris

 

Looks like the serial number on the bolt corresponds to a rifle accepted by inspectors week ending Jan 10 1917

The receiver serial number is giving me some trouble ~ seems too high for the standard production but perhaps I am misreading things. A late production rifle anyway.

 

Edited by 4thGordons
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Wow Chris. Very informative. Thank you very much for all that information. Tought me some new stuff about my dad's old gun. Thank you :)

 

Also Odd.... After checking everything for P14.... theirs no mention by anybody having ERA 700,000's.... Even though everyone agrees that Eddystone says they made 604,000ish and some people have proof they have 630,000 and 640,000 but I seem to have maybe one of the last ones ever built? lol

Edited by Icyred64
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  • 1 year later...

Hi I came across this in a storage unit I purchased in auction. From what I have read in tour posts it'  a P14 from late 1916 early 1917? Any information you could give me on rifle would be appreciated. Thank you.

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1521947193612744128514.jpg

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It's a Pattern 1914 Rifle as you say.

It looks like it could use a good clean/lubricate but other than that I wouldn't do much to it! (certainly don't "restore" it!)

Yours is in the unique Eddystone "fat-boy" stock which is much thicker than those used on Remington and Winchester made rifles and does not have the lateral grasping grooves cut into it. These are pretty common but add interest! Are any stampings visible on the right side of the buttstock?

 

The number on the top of the rear sight should match the serial number of the rifle (looks like it does)

It's a nice example and retains the long range, volley sight (the plate and pointer on the right side of the fore-stock) - is the rear peep arm (right side by the safety) still there? A fairly high proportion of P14s had these components removed during a program to prep them for WWII service known as the WRS (Weedon Repair Standard) or the equivalent in India.

 

Is there an asterisk (*) on the bolt handle (ball) and/or the receiver ring? If not, then it may be a MkI as opposed to a MkI* which makes it a little more interesting (quite early in production the bolt head lugs were enlarged (and obviously the matching recesses in the receiver!) and this is the distinction.

I'll go and look up the serial number for you to give you an acceptance date.

 

It's a nice find.

Chris

 

Edit: ERA rifle 209654  was accepted by British Inspectors in the week ending Feb 3rd 1917 if I am reading the tables correctly.

Edited by 4thGordons
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