2nd Battalion Royal Irish Rifles

[draperju]

Does anyone have access to the Diary of the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Rifles for August 1917

I am particulary interested in the period 7th to 12 August and the death of Rifleman Daniel McKie who died 9 August.

Best wishes

Draperju

[Desmond7]

Hope this helps

On August 4th it moved into the dugouts under the Ramparts of Ypres, and next day into line before Westhoek Ridge. Very unfortunately " A " Company was caught by a heavy barrage moving through Chateau Wood, and had numerous losses. The front line also was heavily bombarded, and the casualties for the first twenty-four hours, including the relief, were upwards of seventy.

The operation to be carried out was to complete the capture of the Westhoek Ridge and bring the line level at this point, so that a further major operation could be undertaken. The 74th Brigade was the only one of its division to be employed, while the 18th Division was attacking on its right. The brigade was to attack upon a front of 2,000 yards, south of the Ypres-Roulers railway line. The distance of its objective varied considerably along its front, being about 450 yards on the right, 650 in the centre, and 250 on the left. With a frontage so wide, the Brigade used all its four battalions, from right to left-the 13th Cheshire, the 2nd Royal Irish Rifles, the 9th Loyal North Lancashire, the 11th Lancashire Fusiliers. The 2nd Royal Irish Rifles had to go the extreme distance, and had, moreover, to take the village of Westhoek itself ; and, if Westhoek were hard to find on the ground, at least the " pill-boxes " might be expected to be thicker on its site than elsewhere.

The Battalion's advance was to be made in four waves, " A " Company in rear forming the fourth. The other three companies were to form the three leading waves, advancing in lines of platoons in depth. * There was one slight aid to direction not always present in this shattered area, as " B," the left company, was to have its right, and " C," the centre company, its left, on the Westhoek-Zonnebeke road, which might be expected to be just recognizable. These three companies were to take and consolidate a line which corresponded exactly with the " Black " Line of the first attack, and " A ', to pass through them to a position 150 yards farther on. Colonel Goodman was left out of this action, it being laid down that commanding officers and seconds-in-command should take turns in going into battle, to avoid the chance of both becoming casualties the same day, and Major R. de R. Rose was in command.

The attack had been fixed for August 9th. Very heavy rain having fallen on the evening of the 8th, filling the shell-holes to the brim with water, it was postponed twenty-four hours. In this period some small improvement may have taken place in the state of the surface, but a faint idea of the conditions may be gained when it is stated that it required eight men to carry down a wounded man on stretcher to the advanced dressing station on the Menin road, and that there were reports of wounded men having been drowned in shell-holes.

" Zero " was at 4.25 a.m. on the 10th. The men went forward with extraordinary bravery. Met by heavy machine-gun fire, their feet clogged by the mud, they advanced heedless of casualties, and with such speed that the Germans in the opposing " pillboxes " were largely taken by surprise. In many cases the enemy ran back from their concrete shelters before the barrage reached them, and ran only to their own destruction. For the barrage caught them up as they floundered knee-deep, and it was, in the expressive term of French gunners, so " well-nourished " that it was Impossible for any man to pass through it in the open without being hit.

Moreover, the Riflemen fired from the hip as they advanced, a method which had sometimes been scoffed at by our military opinion when employed by the Germans, and are said to have brought down several of those who were retreating. On the front of " B " Company, one " pill-box," which had not been seen amid the general welter, though not far from our original line, gave trouble, checking the assault till an officer rushed forward and fired his revolver through a slit in the wall, when the machine-gun team fled. The fight resolved itself chiefly into a " mopping up " of dug-outs which had been passed. From these considerable numbers of prisoners were taken. The objective was reached at 5.20 a.m., and a line of posts pushed out behind a protective barrage to cover the consolidation, which was at once begun. Connection was established with the Cheshires and Loyal North Lancashires, whose attacks had been equally successful.

From 10 a.m. onwards it was observed that the enemy was trickling men across the next ridge in front into the valley of the Hannebeke, where they were in dead ground. At 3.30 p.m. the enemy made what is described as a rather- feeble counter-attack, which was beaten off by machine-gun and rifle fire before our artillery barrage fell. The enemy, however, continued to push men into the Hannebeke Valley, and at 5.50 P.m. S.O.S. signals were put up by the Royal Irish Rifles, as a new attack appeared likely to develop, and the numbers in position in the valley must by now have become considerable. The signal was not seen, but a runner got to advanced brigade headquarters at 6 p.m. with a message from Major Rose, while other battalions reported that the Germans were thick in Polygon Wood. Intense fire was concentrated on these areas at 6.45 p.m. and by 7.15 the enemy's fire, which had likewise grown heavy, slackened off. Our bombardment then stopped, and it seemed as if the counter-attack had been broken up.

It came after all, and only a quarter of an hour later, preceded by a heavy bombardment, with a smoke barrage to cover the assaulting troops. Again the S.O.S. signal was not seen, while, as need hardly be said, no telephone wire could be kept going for five minutes in that inferno. But, most fortunately, one of our airmen did see the signal, or else saw that the enemy was attacking, and himself dropped the rocket which called for a barrage. The result was that our barrage completely smashed the attack in the space of a minute. It seemed as if the front wave was annihilated. Survivors of the others could be seen flying in all directions. The German losses must have been very heavy indeed.

But the enemy was persistent, and was not yet done with. At about 4.15 a.m. next morning strong patrols were pushed forward by him. All but two were checked by Lewis gun fire and got nowhere near our line. Of these two one came on very pluckily and threw bombs, but was attacked with the bayonet and all the twelve men in it killed. The larger patrol retreated before our fire, and was seen to enter a " pill-box." A patrol sent out in turn by the RoyaI Irish Rifles took it in entirety - 1 officer and 19 other ranks. It was a remarkable ending to one of the most splendid incidents in the history of the Battalion.

How splendid its self-sacrifice was can only be measured if we consider its losses. They were extraordinarily high, and it is quite clear to anyone examining them that no troops but those of the very highest quality could have achieved what the Battalion did in face of such fire as these losses imply. The Battalion went into action at a strength of 15 officers and 479 other ranks.

Their losses were 8 officers and 342 other ranks ; or 53 per cent. of officers, and the enormous proportion of 71 per cent. other ranks. But it had been largely a machine-gun battle, and most of the casualties were caused by machine-gun bullets. The proportion of wounded to killed was fortunately high-over 80 per cent. The officer casualties were: Killed, Lieutenants E, Brown, S. V. Morgan, 2nd-Lieutenants P. McKee. Wounded: Captain R. Jeffares, 2nd-Lieutenants R. S. Walsh (Munsters), B. J. Murphy (Munsters), P. D. Alexander, R. Carruthers. The Medical Officer, Lieutenant A. B. Ross, was also killed. On the other hand, the Battalion had captured 4 officers and 150 other ranks, as well as a trench gun and five machine guns, and had undoubtedly accounted for a great number of Germans in its attack and in beating off the numerous counter-attacks.

After the battle the Battalion moved back to the Steenvoorde area for training and reorganization. It had gone twice into action within little more than two months, and had been completely successful in each case.

[Desmond7]

and to the end of the month

II. -AUTUMN, 1917: THE 2ND BATTALION.

The 2nd Battalion, after its action on the Westhoek Ridge, moved back to rest at Steenvoorde, near Cassel. Training was carried out, but the necessary drafts from home arrived in very small numbers. Recruiting in Ireland, at least outside the north-east corner, had to all intents and purposes stopped since the Rebellion, and, as we shall see, there was about to be a disappearance of Irish battalions all over the world. On September 1st the Battalion returned to the Salient, and next night entered the trenches on the Westhoek Ridge. It is recorded that its strength in the line was 10 officers and 242 other ranks. The enemy made a local attack on the Battalion's line under cover of a very heavy barrage on the night of the 6th. Our S.O.S. signal went up in good time, and under the weight of the resultant barrage the attack faded away without a man reaching our wire. The Battalion was relieved on the night of the 8th, and after a week in camp moved back by bus. It remained at Raimbert till the end of the month, having thus an opportunity to train some drafts which had at last arrived.

[draperju]

and to the end of the month

II. -AUTUMN, 1917: THE 2ND BATTALION.

The 2nd Battalion, after its action on the Westhoek Ridge, moved back to rest at Steenvoorde, near Cassel. Training was carried out, but the necessary drafts from home arrived in very small numbers. Recruiting in Ireland, at least outside the north-east corner, had to all intents and purposes stopped since the Rebellion, and, as we shall see, there was about to be a disappearance of Irish battalions all over the world. On September 1st the Battalion returned to the Salient, and next night entered the trenches on the Westhoek Ridge. It is recorded that its strength in the line was 10 officers and 242 other ranks. The enemy made a local attack on the Battalion's line under cover of a very heavy barrage on the night of the 6th. Our S.O.S. signal went up in good time, and under the weight of the resultant barrage the attack faded away without a man reaching our wire. The Battalion was relieved on the night of the 8th, and after a week in camp moved back by bus. It remained at Raimbert till the end of the month, having thus an opportunity to train some drafts which had at last arrived.

[Thank you for this extremely detailed imformation

Looks like the main attack was to go in the 10th Daniel who died on the 9th and reported as killed in action must have been killed whilst waiting in the front line after the postponement

Once again thank you for your help with this matter

What is the source of information

Best wishes

Draperju]

[Desmond7]

It comes from Cyril Falls 'History of the First 7 Battalions of the Royal Irish Rifles in the Great War'

Des

[Dbaulch]

Ive come upon this thread today as,returning from Ypres today, I am researching John Alfred Bass, 11710, of D company, 2nd battalion, the Irish Regiment (formerly Royal West Kent) who died on 17th August 1917. I have ready the post with great attention and wonder if this is the action in which John Alfred received wounds that killed him. If the 2nd Btn moved out of the Salient after the attack on Westhoek Ridge then how can he have been killed in action on 17th? In the same cemetery many from the same regiment with a recorded death date of 16th or 15th August can be found. Does anyone have any further information to add to the above?

Many thanks

Dav

[Tavern Druid]

On 01/09/2014 at 22:19, Dbaulch said:

Ive come upon this thread today as,returning from Ypres today, I am researching John Alfred Bass, 11710, of D company, 2nd battalion, the Irish Regiment (formerly Royal West Kent) who died on 17th August 1917. I have ready the post with great attention and wonder if this is the action in which John Alfred received wounds that killed him. If the 2nd Btn moved out of the Salient after the attack on Westhoek Ridge then how can he have been killed in action on 17th? In the same cemetery many from the same regiment with a recorded death date of 16th or 15th August can be found. Does anyone have any further information to add to the above?

Many thanks

Dav

Hi Dbaulch

 

I've just come across your post of 2104.

I to am research JOHN ALFRED BASS he is commomoreated on the St Albans Church, St Alnans Road, Dartford, Kent.

I am trying to document all those on this memorial.

 

I was about to place a post but maybe you can help me.

On the Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW) his service number are shown as follows

Pte Royal Irish Regiment 2^nd Bn Service number 11710

Then in the supplementary notes it states

FORMERLY 10122, R.W. KENT REGT., AND 3/22632, BORDER REGT.

Every where also in his military record, MiC, Medal Roll, Register of Soldiers Effects, and an Irish Memorial page there is no mention of him serving in the Border regiment.

Do you have any information as to if this is correct or an error.

If he was in the Border Rgt when and where was he.

I image you aware the all the military records I have found show him as ALFRED JOHN BASS. but he was basptised as John Alfred on 5 April 1893 in Holy Trinity Church Dartford.

I have not found a service record for him.

Look forwrd to hearing from you.

David Turner

 

[MaxD]

Dbaulch doesn't seem to have been on the site since Sep 18, hope this helps:

 

Your searches are correct.  3/22632 appear to have been one Private Starkie of 3rd East Lancs transferred to the RDC in April 1918.

 

But, 22632 was one Private A Bass who was L/10122 in the RWK then 22632 Border Regt and 5338 in the R Irish (source medal card).  The similarity of his name and the two numbers L/10122 (RWK number) and 10122 (your R Irish number) and both in the R Irish later on would seem to be a recipe for a mix up somewhere along the way.

 

Max

 

Edited 16 January , 2019 by MaxD
correct typo

[Tavern Druid]

7 hours ago, MaxD said:

Dbaulch doesn't seem to have been on the site since Sep 18, hope this helps:

 

Your searches are correct.  3/22632 appear to have been one Private Starkie of 3rd East Lancs transferred to the RDC in April 1918.

 

But, 22632 was one Private A Bass who was L/10122 in the RWK then 22632 Border Regt and 5338 in the R Irish (source medal card).  The similarity of his name and the two numbers L/10122 (RWK number) and 10122 (your R Irish number) and both in the R Irish later on would seem to be a recipe for a mix up somewhere along the way.

 

Max

 

Hi Max.

I might have ponly sent half a message if so I am writing it again here. Damm computers !!!

 

Thanks for your reply. I did wonder if Dbaulch may have stopped visiting or posting on GWF.

 

I must admit I did not think about looking for a second MiC I thought that there would only be one record.

Just goes to prove that you should never assume anything!.

But I am confused as to why there would be two MIcs.

 

From your information I have located a medical record on FMP for him with an admission date of 5 Jan 1916 with the S/n of 22632 and the record says in the Column RGT, Bn, Corps or Other Unit 1/Border att 2/Comp Batt and in Colunm Sqd.Batt. or Coy  A 29/Div and the Observation colunm Mex Camp. To No6 Con Home.

The  Corps was 2/Camp Ba and the  Hospital was 19th General Hospital.

 

So if I understand this correctly he was attached to the 1/Borders from the 2/Composite Battalion.

As his Mic lists in order RWK then Borders finally Irish Rgt., I presume the Composite Batt. would have been the RWK. So I need to hunt that out.

I have used all the three S/Ns but can still not find a service record so it must be on of those that were destroyed.

 

Going back to the S/n that relates to Pte Starkie, it has to be that someone made an error when completing the forms doesn't it?

I have found whats left of his service record and he does not appear to have been a well man.

 

Thank for you help. If you think of anything esle that might help me I woulf be most grateful.

 

Cheers

 

David Turner

[MaxD]

The fact that Starkie has the same number is quite normal, numbers were regimental at that time so duplicates occurred.

 

1 Border att 2 Comp is the other way round.  It means he was in 1 Border but attached to 2 Comp Bn.  The hospital was in Alexandria so although I don't know the detail (someone will) the "Composite Battalion" must have been post Gallipoli and in Egypt associated with 29 Division.

 

Max

[MaxD]

My earlier post may have implied there were two A Bass, not my intention. 

 

The  RWK 1914 Star medal roll, which I should have looked at before, tells the story.  It has his entry date (with 1 RWK) to France of 15 Aug 1914 so he was either a recalled reserve or was already serving.  There are then two later amendments. reading "tr to 3 Border before(?) 9 Nov 1915 (22362)" and "tr to R Irish Regt 2 Dec 16 (5338) ". These are the dates on his medal card.  He was not the only RWK transferred to 3 Border on the same day and same page of the roll. 3 Border was a reserve unit in UK.  His Royal Irish Regiment medal roll entry does not mention the Border Regiment and it has his R Irish number 11710.

 

My suggestion would be that there has simply been more than one error in recording his service.  The medical report has him in 1 Border which is not recorded anywhere and 5338 looks wrong for a R Irish number in Dec 1916.

 

Frankly I'd go with the 3 regiment sequence and dates above although the move from 3 Border to 1 Border is not clear.  As he was not posted to the composite battalion but just attached, I wouldn't expect to see it on his medal records anyway.

 

It would be nice if someone could shed light on No 2 Composite Battalion at or post Gallipoli.  I have found reference to more than one such battalion on this site but without a battalion number.  May be best to start another thread?

 

Max

 

 

 

 

[kenf48]

Can't help with the Composite Battalion

 

He enlisted in the RWK prior to the war the 'L' prefix indicates a local enlistment.  

Paul Nixons's indispensable site shows 10398 joined 2nd July 1914.

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/royal-west-kent-regiment-1st-2nd.html

 

Service records indicate 10122 was around April 1914

 

As noted above to France then either sick or wounded returned to UK and 3rd or Depot Bn RWK on recovery.

 

The RWK  men Max mentions were transferred and renumbered to the 3rd Border Regiment on the 9th November 1915.  They were posted to the 1st Border Regiment on the 24th November 1915 when they embarked Devonport for the Dardanelles.  But it appears they never arrived as they were not posted to the Battalion until the 20th January.

 

The 1st Border Regiment was evacuated from Cape Helles to Mudros on the 10th January 1916 and embarked for Egypt on two ships on the 11th and 12th, arriving at Alexandria on the 15th and 16th respectively.  They then entrained to the Suez Canal.   The war diary shows the Battalion was reinforced by 343 other ranks from England on the 20th.

 

As he was admitted to hospital on the 5th January he had not joined the 1st Bn Border Regiment although he was shown on their strength.  

 

11713 (formerly 8475 Border Regiment) claims to have transferred to 2nd Royal Irish Regiment 28.9.1916 (Pension records his own declaration), but 11753 was posted to the 4th Bn R Irish Regt 18.6.1917. so that's an anomaly.

 

Ken

 

 

Edited 17 January , 2019 by kenf48

[MaxD]

Thank you Ken for putting more flesh on the bones,  always a relief to know my fumblings hold some water!

 

Max

[clk]

Hi,

 

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

As noted above to France then either sick or wounded returned to UK and 3rd or Depot Bn RWK on recovery

 

Possibly relating to this...

 

FMP have another MH 106 record for him under his 10122 RWK number - admitted ('GSW Shoulder R') to 3 CCS on 18.4.1915. Transferred the same day with a number of other men...

 

Image source: Findmypast

 

...to number 4 or 6 Ambulance Train or St Omer ??

 

Regards

Chris