emo924 Posted 6 October , 2009 Share Posted 6 October , 2009 Can anyone help with the activities of the 2/5th Ryl Warwickshires during the months of March to July 1916? I have just bought a Military Cross group to Lieutenant Herbert Rudolf Class. The award was gazetted on the 27th July 1916 and appears to relate to a single action rather than collective endeavours although of course it is not dated. Any information would be gratefully received. Many thanks ChrisE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 6 October , 2009 Share Posted 6 October , 2009 ChrisE Make what you will of this conflicting info ! Here the link from the Long Long Trail,at top left of this page: http://www.1914-1918.net/61div.htm 61 Division was the parent organisation for the 2/5 RWR,itself a part of 182 Brigade within that Division. Both the Regimental and the Divisional data says that they shipped out to France on 21 May 1916. The Battalion War Diary at Kew,which is under WO95/3056,is shown to cover the unit's activities (in a war situation) from Sept 1915 to Feb 1918. Someone here might know the answer ! The above link shows you where they concentrated on arrival in France,but their first battle wasn't until Fromelles on the Somme on 19th July 1916. Sometimes the War Diary will give a citation,and you might get detail from the London Gazette. Divisional Histories sometimes give citations also but my list of those histories on the shelves at Kew shows that 61 Div doesn't have one,or is it just that Kew doesn't have one (Naval and Military Press) ! Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 6 October , 2009 Share Posted 6 October , 2009 2/5th RWR were brigaded in 182 Bde (61st Division) with the other three second line Royal Warwicks battalions (2/6, 2/7, 2/8). I have Shannessy's History of the 2/6th which will have similar movements with rotations of the four battalions in the front line, support and in reserve. March-May 21st 1916 still in the UK then leave for France. The Brigade concentrates in the Merville-Gonnheim areas. 2/6 go into the trenches attached to 2/Worcs and 1/Cameronians for induction on June 8 near Beuvry. June 10 - all the battalion at Bethune. June 12-21 At La Gorgue. Lot of RE working parties June 21 At Croix Barbee not far from the front line. June 25 Carried out first relief in the front line on their own in the sector due east of Laventie. July 10 Relieved after 16 days July 19 Takes part in Fromelles attack Spends the rest of July and the next 3 months on the Laventie front line. So it is in this general area that the medal is won post-Fromelles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emo924 Posted 7 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2009 sotonmate Many thanks for responding so quickly - I am bit further on than when I started for sure. As I said there is a specific citation for the MC and it is gazetted on 27 July 1916. I will quote it below - 'FOR CONSPICUOUS GALLANTRY. THROUGHOUT AN INTENSE BOMBARDMENT WHICH WRECKED THE DEFENCES HE MOVED ABOUT WITH UTTER CONTEMPT OF DANGER ENCOURAGING HIS MEN. HE MATERIALLY ASSISTED IN REORGANISING THE DEFENCES AND IN REPELLING THE ENEMY'S INFANTRY' Now this suggests something specific although it didn't have to mean a major attack. But, if he didn't arrive in France until May 1916 he was fairly quick off the mark to have been decorated only two months later. Also I don't know if officer's awards were gazetted any faster than other ranks but in my limited experience the usual period was about 3 months between act and gazette. I am hopefully visiting the Nat Arch next month and now am a bit better prepared to begin my search there ( I am a bit of a novice researcher only having been 2 or 3 times before. Whatever - thanks again for your help ChrisE ChrisE Make what you will of this conflicting info ! Here the link from the Long Long Trail,at top left of this page: http://www.1914-1918.net/61div.htm 61 Division was the parent organisation for the 2/5 RWR,itself a part of 182 Brigade within that Division. Both the Regimental and the Divisional data says that they shipped out to France on 21 May 1916. The Battalion War Diary at Kew,which is under WO95/3056,is shown to cover the unit's activities (in a war situation) from Sept 1915 to Feb 1918. Someone here might know the answer ! The above link shows you where they concentrated on arrival in France,but their first battle wasn't until Fromelles on the Somme on 19th July 1916. Sometimes the War Diary will give a citation,and you might get detail from the London Gazette. Divisional Histories sometimes give citations also but my list of those histories on the shelves at Kew shows that 61 Div doesn't have one,or is it just that Kew doesn't have one (Naval and Military Press) ! Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emo924 Posted 7 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2009 Alan Many thanks for your very prompt and comprehensive response. I am a fairly late comer to the Great War so nothing is familiar to me as it were. The citation for Lt Class appears in the London Gazette of 27 July 1916. I will quote it in full 'FOR CONSPICUOUS GALLANTRY. THROUGHOUT AN INTENSE BOMBARDMENT WHICH WRECKED THE DEFENCES HE MOVED ABOUT WITH UTTER CONTEMPT OF DANGER ENCOURAGING HIS MEN. HE MATERIALLY ASSISTED IN REORGANISING THE DEFENCES AND IN REPELLING THE ENEMY'S INFANTRY.' As far as I was aware, gallantry citations etc usually took about 3 months between act and appearing in the gazette. If he only arrived in France in May 1916 and it appears didn't move up to the front until late June then he was pretty quick off the mark to be decorated and for it to be gazetted so quickly. I am hopefully visiting the Nat Archives next month ( I am a very novice researcher there too) so hopefully I might find out more then. In the meantime, thanks again for your help it is much appreciated. ChrisE 2/5th RWR were brigaded in 182 Bde (61st Division) with the other three second line Royal Warwicks battalions (2/6, 2/7, 2/8). I have Shannessy's History of the 2/6th which will have similar movements with rotations of the four battalions in the front line, support and in reserve. March-May 21st 1916 still in the UK then leave for France. The Brigade concentrates in the Merville-Gonnheim areas. 2/6 go into the trenches attached to 2/Worcs and 1/Cameronians for induction on June 8 near Beuvry. June 10 - all the battalion at Bethune. June 12-21 At La Gorgue. Lot of RE working parties June 21 At Croix Barbee not far from the front line. June 25 Carried out first relief in the front line on their own in the sector due east of Laventie. July 10 Relieved after 16 days July 19 Takes part in Fromelles attack Spends the rest of July and the next 3 months on the Laventie front line. So it is in this general area that the medal is won post-Fromelles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 7 October , 2009 Share Posted 7 October , 2009 I am in and out of the 'Warwicks Museum' at Warwick at the moment looking at war diaries. I have almost done them all to May 1916. Some time in the next couple of weeks I will sneak a look at the 2/5th for the July period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emo924 Posted 8 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2009 Alan Many thanks indeed for your kind offer - it is much appreciated. ChrisE I am in and out of the 'Warwicks Museum' at Warwick at the moment looking at war diaries. I have almost done them all to May 1916. Some time in the next couple of weeks I will sneak a look at the 2/5th for the July period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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