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Remembered Today:

Navl Cadets, 1903-1921


Leighbridge
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Glad to see you here, Leighbridge, as we share an interest in Osborne. I have been hoping to locate the term rosters. Have you been able to do so? Have you toured the facility? Have you any term photos?

I am currently researching the history of naval cadets in the Royal Navy during the Great War & am at present, seeking details of Royal Naval College, Osborne to try and built a complete picture of how it appeared at the hight of its operation.

The imformation on this establishment is scarce to say the least, but i have tracked down several photos and with the help of detailed descriptions given in papers of the day have a good understanding of its layout.

Survey maps of the time have been blanked out for security perposes.

There are however several uncertian points,

1. The second gym/ward room built in 1907 for first term cadets, its location & name? (possibly Collingwood.)

The building is nearly the same size as 'Nelson' & built in the same style, I believe it may have been located at the oppisite end of the cadets hallway connecting the dorms to 'Nelson' & near the first term dormitorys

2. The location of the water tower, it was near 'Nelson" but unsure of its exact position? i think it may have been between 'Nelson' & "St.Vincent' above the classsrooms located here.

If anyone can help on this matter or in any other way i would be greatful for your assistance.

I am also doing a side project on naval schools operated during this period.

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G'day Jesse

Osborne House in Geelong was the first site of the RAN College, the HQ for our J class subs and WW2 unit HQ's.

It now has a maritime museum, well worth a visit when down this way.

I have fond memories... but only because I umpired my first senior game of Aussie Rules Footy there in 1962.

Regards

Stormy

305342 : NORTH GEELONG, VIC. 1913-03-01.

GROUP PORTRAIT OF THE OFFICERS OF THE ROYAL AUSTRALIAN NAVAL COLLEGE ON THE OCCASION OF ITS OFFICIAL OPENING AT OSBORNE HOUSE.

BACK ROW, LEFT TO RIGHT: ENGINEER LIEUTENANT D. J. WEEKS; ARTIFICER ENGINEER A. E. MARDEN; ASSISTANT PAYMASTER E. W. TRIVETT; S. C. SMITH BA; GUNNER T. T. DIX. FRONT ROW: ENGINEER LIEUTENANT W. A. MONK; F. G. BROWN BA BSC; CAPTAIN B. M. CHAMBERS; LIEUTENANT D. GRANT; REVEREND W. HALL BA. (NAVAL HISTORICAL COLLECTION). Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain Copyright holder: Copyright Expired Related unit: Royal Australian Naval College (Jervis Bay) Related place: Geelong

post-48333-1255003409.jpg

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Hi Stormy, nice to hear from you, and great photo! That's the other, more Southern Osborne you're onto there, which has indeed a long and storied Naval list of men and ships. I wonder if anyone's done a book on that station.

G'day Jesse

Osborne House in Geelong was the first site of the RAN College, the HQ for our J class subs and WW2 unit HQ's.

It now has a maritime museum, well worth a visit when down this way.

I have fond memories... but only because I umpired my first senior game of Aussie Rules Footy there in 1962.

Regards

Stormy

305342 : NORTH GEELONG, VIC. 1913-03-01.

GROUP PORTRAIT OF THE OFFICERS OF THE ROYAL AUSTRALIAN NAVAL COLLEGE ON THE OCCASION OF ITS OFFICIAL OPENING AT OSBORNE HOUSE.

BACK ROW, LEFT TO RIGHT: ENGINEER LIEUTENANT D. J. WEEKS; ARTIFICER ENGINEER A. E. MARDEN; ASSISTANT PAYMASTER E. W. TRIVETT; S. C. SMITH BA; GUNNER T. T. DIX. FRONT ROW: ENGINEER LIEUTENANT W. A. MONK; F. G. BROWN BA BSC; CAPTAIN B. M. CHAMBERS; LIEUTENANT D. GRANT; REVEREND W. HALL BA. (NAVAL HISTORICAL COLLECTION). Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain Copyright holder: Copyright Expired Related unit: Royal Australian Naval College (Jervis Bay) Related place: Geelong

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I have seen the web site for naval training ships it is an excellent site. However, like all other sites, there is no imformation on RNCO.

You might like to know the trianing ship HMS Conway was one of the only naval schools to have its students pass into Osborne, 6 over the time of this college. 4 entered in 'Drake' term, January, 1914.

HMS Conway charged 25 Pounds a term catering to boys 8-14 yo and offered passing into Royal Naval College, Dartmouth with limited chance to enter Osborne.

When you consider that over this same time Cheam School in Surrey under the guidlence of Mr Tabor & with no naval instruction had 16 students pass into RNCO, you see the Admiralty was clearly not after crammers.

Hello Leighbridge,

Further to your side-remarks concerning HMS Conway, please remember that the aim of this particular nautical training school was first and foremost to turn out officers equipped for service in the British merchant navy. Unlike Osborne, Conway was not an official Royal Navy establishment – in fact the title ‘HMS Conway’ was only an honorary distinction conferred on the school by Queen Victoria, thus allowing its cadets to wear RNR uniforms.

Many hundreds/thousands of old Conways served with distinction in the mercantile marine at a time when the British Merchant Navy was by far the largest in the world. On leaving Conway (parallel to their civilian employment) a large proportion of Conway cadets voluntarily accepted commissions in the Royal Naval Reserve and on the outbreak of hostilities in 1914 they went on to serve with great distinction under the white ensign.

Surely it's no surprise that relatively few Conway cadets choose to become regular RN officers (switching from Conway to Osbourne) since if it had always been their original intention to serve in the RN then these young men would have been better off joining Osbourne at the start, rather than Conway first.

Regards,

Michael ('Egypt')

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George Archer-Shee - what an awful lot happened to him in his short life - RIP George

After his expulsion from Osborne, Archer-Shee returned to Stonyhurst College (where he had been educated before going to Osborne). He went to the United States to work, but returned home to enlist in the Army at the start of World War I. He was commissioned as a Lieutenant in the First Batallion, the South Staffordshire Regiment, and was killed at the First Battle of Ypres in 1914.

In Memory of

Lieutenant GEORGE ARCHER-SHEE

3rd Bn., South Staffordshire Regiment

who died age 19

on 31 October 1914

Studied at Stonyhurst College and Royal Naval College, Osborne. Was the subject of Terence Rattigan's play "The Winslow Boy".

Remembered with honour

YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

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Leighbridge may be inerested in picking up a copy of The School That Jack Built by Geoffrey Haskins

Published by Arcturus Press, ISBN 0907322 71 9

Copies available from internet providers at under a fiver.

It's the story of the Royal Naval College Osborne 1903 - 1923 where apparently many Conway cadets who were interested in pursuing Royal Navy careers went as a result of a special scheme of study (in their 6th and final Term).

27 pages, 11 full page illustrations.

Rgds,

Michael

PS Contrary to what has been said earlier, HMS Conway never accepted cadets as young as 8. The earliest a boy joined was 13 and the usual age was 14 - remaining there for two years before heading off to sea (i.e. similar age range to that of RNC Osborne cadets).

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Speaking as a former Conway cadet myself - no offence taken.

And leaving aside all remarks concerning knickerbokers and difficiencies in naval ship construction, and in an effort to steer the subject back towards the topic of the original thread, I would advise as follows:

1. Special Royal Naval College Cadetships were offered to a maximum of six HMS Conway cadets per annum (two per term) to enter Dartmouth. Under this arrangement with the Admiralty, time on 'Conway' counted as time at the RNC Osborne. Same age regulations applied as for Osborne cadets, but Conway cadets were required to have studied an Admiralty approved syllabus. This meant that they had to attend extra classes whilst still on the Conway and furthermore they were also required to sit an entry examination (held at RNC Osborne), to ensure that any Conway entrants to Dartmouth were of equivalent standard to Osborne cadets. I also discovered that during the war years the number of Conway RN cadetships to Dartmouth was increased to 5 per term. And futhermore during the period of the Great War some 250 HMS Conway cadets passed directly from the Conway into the fleet (holding temporary RNR commissions rather than being regular RN officers).

2. Plenty of contemporary photographic evidence to show that Conway cadets back then did indeed wear Naval uniforms (as was the case in my time too - see above image, circa 1910).

3. Notable former Conway Cadets of WW1 vintage include Capt. Unwin VC (River Clyde), Lt. Bonner VC (Dunraven), A/Col. PE Bent VC (9th Bn Leicester Reg.) and Capt. HD King, CO Drake Bn RND.

4. Best of luck to Leighbridge with your RNC Osborne research - and I may have some interesting stuff to forward you soonest the moderators will allow you receive PM's.

Best regards,

Michael

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Wow, talk about being thin skinned! My sincere apologies if I have offended you.

And there was me volunteering to send you some seriously interesting primary source material regarding RNC Osborne - obviously I won't bother now.

Good luck with your 'research'.

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Hahaha, oh boy... And I had such high hopes for you, leighbridge.

I am currently researching the history of naval cadets in the Royal Navy during the Great War & am at present, seeking details of Royal Naval College, Osborne to try and built a complete picture of how it appeared at the hight of its operation.

The imformation on this establishment is scarce to say the least, but i have tracked down several photos and with the help of detailed descriptions given in papers of the day have a good understanding of its layout.

Survey maps of the time have been blanked out for security perposes.

There are however several uncertian points,

1. The second gym/ward room built in 1907 for first term cadets, its location & name? (possibly Collingwood.)

The building is nearly the same size as 'Nelson' & built in the same style, I believe it may have been located at the oppisite end of the cadets hallway connecting the dorms to 'Nelson' & near the first term dormitorys

2. The location of the water tower, it was near 'Nelson" but unsure of its exact position? i think it may have been between 'Nelson' & "St.Vincent' above the classsrooms located here.

If anyone can help on this matter or in any other way i would be greatful for your assistance.

I am also doing a side project on naval schools operated during this period.

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  • 4 years later...

Dear Leighbridge,

I was very please to see that you have lists of cadets at Osborne. Could I ask a favour? I know I had a relative who was a cadet at Osborne as I saw the surname in a group photo of cadets on a visit to Broadlands over 20 years ago. I had a number of relatives serving at the time but most likely it was Robin G. B. Giffard born in 1899 (later Giffard-Brine). If I can identify the relative and his years at Osborne then I might be able to track down the photo! (He had a brother Frederic Giffard born in 1885 also in the RN but he may have been from the generation before Osborne.) Would you be able to let me know if you can find him on your lists and details relating to him?

Further down this conversation I know there is a request for photos. I don't any - obviously - but this one was in the small Mountbatten Museum which was run beside Broadlands. I don't know if it is still there or if they would be prepared to provide a copy but separately this link to the Mountbatten Archives in Southampton http://www.southampton.ac.uk/archives/pdfs/MB2.pdf has a reference on page 17 to Osborne so it might be here as well.

Many thanks!

Ben Giffard

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Dear Leighbridge,



Apologies if I end up posting this twice as I am new to this site. I was very please to see that you have lists of cadets at Osborne. Could I ask a favour? I know I had a relative who was a cadet at Osborne as I saw the surname in a group photo of cadets on a visit to Broadlands over 20 years ago. I had a number of relatives serving at the time but most likely it was Robin G. B. Giffard born in 1899 (later Giffard-Brine). If I can identify the relative and his years at Osborne then I might be able to track down the photo! (He had a brother Frederic Giffard born in 1885 also in the RN but he may have been from the generation before Osborne.) Would you be able to let me know if you can find him on your lists and details relating to him?



Further down this conversation I know there is a request for photos. I don't any - obviously - but this one was in the small Mountbatten Museum which was run beside Broadlands. I don't know if it is still there or if they would be prepared to provide a copy but separately this link to the Mountbatten Archives in Southampton http://www.southampt...es/pdfs/MB2.pdf has a reference on page 17 to Osborne so it might be here as well.



Many thanks!



Ben Giffard



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  • 1 month later...

Thank you for your query regarding R. G. B. Giffard & Frederic Giffard.

I should apologize for the length of time since your question till now, but it would be better if you msg me so that I get an email as I rarely come into this forum.
I found the following information on the two in question but have not found a confirmed link that places them as brothers. If you have a definitive link I would be grateful if you would please let me know.

ROBIN GEORGE BRUCE GIFFARD (Giffard-Brine after 1914).

2 April 1899-31May1916.

He was born at Droxford, Hampshire, UK.

Births, Marriages & Deaths-
Volume 2c, Page 147.

He entered Royal Naval College, Osborne-January 1912, Drake Term & passed on to Dartmouth College January 1914.

After attending the Fleet Review on the Solent, 1914, he was mobilised along with the majority of Dartmouth cadets at the start of WWI.

1914 rated a Midshipman with seniority of 2/8/1914.

Posted to (unknown ship), where he suffered a serious accident aboard ship & was sent to Queensbury Hospital for medical attention, 17/10/1915.
After being discharged & returned to service, he was again admitted to hospital, this time at Haslar on 10/11/1915 & again on 3/1/1916.

He was posted to HMS Invincible and was killed in action going down with the ship at the Battle of Jutland, 31May1916, aged 15 years.

Death-
Naval War Deaths-1914-1921.
Year 1916, Volume RNO, page 82.

Among those of his term to die at Jutland were-

HMS Indefatigable, 31/5/1916.
Bates, E. R.
Summers, C. H. G.
Tudbull, D. C.

HMS Invincible, 31/5/1916.
Birch, D. A. C.
Esmonde, J. H. G.
Hodgson, E. T.
Shorland, J. M.

Wenham Humfrey Wykeham-Musgrove the well known Midshipman famous for surviving the sinking of the cruisers Houge, Aboukir & Cressy, was also a term mate of Robin’s.

FREDERICK GIFFARD.

4 June 1885-22 Feb 1923.

He was born at St. Georges Square, London.
Births, Marriages & Deaths-
Volume 1a, Page 407.

His name was Frederick but he dropped the K from his name (reason unknown), becoming Frederic at the time he entered Britannia as an officer cadet in January 1900.

Cadetship, Britannia 1900.
Midshipman, 15 May 1901.
Acting Sub-Lt, 15 July 1903.
Lieutenant, 15 January, 1905.
Lieutenant T (Torpedo), 27 July, 1908.
Lt-Commander, 15 January, 1913.
Commander, 30 June, 1916.
Awarded DSO for service in the prosecution of the war, gazetted 1/8/1919.

Married Dorothy Mary ? 2nd June, 1920, Dublin.

Placed on the retired list, 10/2/1923 as medically unfit (Epilepsy).
Died 23/2/1923 at St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, aged 37 years.

Births, Marriages & Deaths-
Volume 1c, Page 27.

I hope the information provided helps you in your search for your families history and if I can be of any help in further matters please do not hesitate to ask.

Regards,
Leighbridge.

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In regard to personal messege asking for your query about the Osborne cadet Francis John Heston Daglish, I have found the following information.



Francis John Heston Daglish
1904- 1974.

He was born at Toxteth Park Liverpool, the second child of Robert Francis & Gertrude Daglish. He had an elder sister and younger brother.
Birth, Marriages & Deaths,
Vol 8b, page 144.

Attachment-Liverpool Daily Post & Mercury, 24 December 1917.
Naval Cadetships.

He entered Osborne college January 1918, Drake Term.

Among his term mates were-.

Sir Richard Hugh Barlow.
1904-1946.
Rose to rank of Wing Commander in the RAF, awarded AFC.
6th Baronet Barlow of Fort William, Bengal.
Died in a plane crash.

Nigel John Crossely.
1904-1940.
Gained the rank of Lt-Commander in the RN. Died from wounds received while commanding officer of HMS Gipsey, Nov 1940.

Nigel Loftus Henry Fane.
1904-1973.
Gained the rank of Commander in the RN, 1939-1941, HMS Fervent.
Gained the rank of Commander in the RNR, 1941-1945, staff, costal command, RAF.

Michael Grant Goodenough.
1904-1955.
Gained the rank of Rear-Admiral, in the RN.
Awarded- DSO, US Bronze Star, CBE, Commander, Order of Orange-Nassau.

Arthur Pedder.
1904-1995.
Gained the rank of Vice-Admiral in the RN.
Award KBE CB.

Derek Skene Studholme.
1904-1973.
Gained the rank of Lt-Colonel in the Royal Artillery.
Awarded MBE.




Marriage, Vol 8b page 55.


Death, (Liverpool) Vol 36 page 670.


Re Military promotion.
Attachment-The Yorkshire Post, 21 June 1939.
Naval& Military Intelligence


I have also uploaded the merchant seaman ticket I mentioned earlier.
Hope this information is to your satisfaction and if you require anything else, pleasee do not hesitate to ask.

Regards,
Leighbridge.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 year later...
Guest Pronto Blue

I am currently doing research into the names on the Bishops Waltham, Hampshire War Memorial and separately, research for the National Museum of the Royal Navy associated with the Battle of Jutland. Three naval personnel on the war memorial died at Jutland; Midshipman Robert "Chips George Bruce Giffard, RN; Gunner Frederick Charles Andrews, RMA; Edwin Albert Barfoot, RMLI. If any members of this forum have knowledge of the three named casualties - or in particular, photographs of them that they are willing to allow to be published, could they please contact me. I note that Ben Giffard has previously responded on a similar topic, is he still contactable?

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  • 1 year later...
On 1/21/2016 at 05:40, Pronto Blue said:

I am currently doing research into the names on the Bishops Waltham, Hampshire War Memorial and separately, research for the National Museum of the Royal Navy associated with the Battle of Jutland. Three naval personnel on the war memorial died at Jutland; Midshipman Robert "Chips George Bruce Giffard, RN; Gunner Frederick Charles Andrews, RMA; Edwin Albert Barfoot, RMLI. If any members of this forum have knowledge of the three named casualties - or in particular, photographs of them that they are willing to allow to be published, could they please contact me. I note that Ben Giffard has previously responded on a similar topic, is he still contactable?

Hello Pronto Blue, Yes - I'm still here.   I can give you the little information I have but with a life ending at 16 years old there is not a lot of it.  I have a photo of Robin taken in 1911.  It is from a school photo and shows him as a boy of 11 or so.  I have been searching for a while for something in the mid teens but without much success.  Paradoxically there would have been photos either of each intake or the full compliment of the Royal Naval College - but none of these are on line.  As I say further up in this chain, I saw one of these years ago and it included a Giffard - and I suspect it was Robin / Chips - but I've not been able to track it down since.  All most frustrating!   I wonder if originals exist at Dartmouth?   Best wishes, Ben

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Ben,

 

I was successful recently in obtaining a digital reproduction of the 1908 (I think) Easter term photograph from BRNC Dartmouth's archive (showing Lionel C P Tudway, RN, commander of HMS Sumana at Kut in 1915) so it may well be worth contacting them to enquire. I believe contact details are on BRNC's website.

 

sJ

 

 

Edited by seaJane
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If you're ever down that way you may be able to do a tour of the college - I did one a few years back (unfortunately before my family history had advanced to the point where I discovered several people who had attended).

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On 1/21/2016 at 05:40, Pronto Blue said:

I am currently doing research into the names on the Bishops Waltham, Hampshire War Memorial and separately, research for the National Museum of the Royal Navy associated with the Battle of Jutland. Three naval personnel on the war memorial died at Jutland; Midshipman Robert "Chips George Bruce Giffard, RN; Gunner Frederick Charles Andrews, RMA; Edwin Albert Barfoot, RMLI. If any members of this forum have knowledge of the three named casualties - or in particular, photographs of them that they are willing to allow to be published, could they please contact me. I note that Ben Giffard has previously responded on a similar topic, is he still contactable?

Hello Pronto Blue, Yes - I'm still here.   I can give you the little information I have but with a life ending at 16 years old there is not a lot of it.  I have a photo of Robin taken in 1911.  It is from a school photo and shows him as a boy of 11 or so.  I have been searching for a while for something in the mid teens but without much success.  Paradoxically there would have been photos either of each intake or the full compliment of the Royal Naval College - but none of these are on line.  As I say further up in this chain, I saw one of these years ago and it included a Giffard - and I suspect it was Robin / Chips - but I've not been able to track it down since.  All most frustrating!   I wonder if originals exist at Dartmouth?   Best wishes, Ben

Dear seaJane,

 

Many thanks for the suggestion - I will follow up with BRNC and see if they can help.  Best wishes, Ben

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Good luck Ben. The image I was sent was certainly taken from an original. I checked the other day and the date was in fact Easter term 1910 rather than 1908. I forget how I established which term or year I should be asking for!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/18/2017 at 22:26, seaJane said:

Good luck Ben. The image I was sent was certainly taken from an original. I checked the other day and the date was in fact Easter term 1910 rather than 1908. I forget how I established which term or year I should be asking for!

seaJane - many thanks.  I've tried to contact Britannia RNC a couple of times through their web site on https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/contact-us   I've sent a message through their Contact Us portal but they state that this is only for Careers Info, Website Issues and Welfare Matters; and so far no reply from them to me.  I'm happy to keep trying until someone gets fed up and comes back to me but, can I ask, did you go this route or did you manage to find a separate email address or contact point?   Any tips or advice on this will be very welcome!  Best wishes, Ben

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I'll check - hold the line.

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