General Officers in combat

[Perth Digger]

David

Barrie asked about officers, not general officers, so I gave these stats, which actually are killed, not casualties. The number of general officers is so small compared with the number of O/Rs that any statistical analysis would be meaningless anyway.

As a matter of interest, on 15 September 1916 about 4000 troops were killed. 11 battalion COs (Lt-Cols) were killed, as well as 10 majors. 309 officers were killed that I have counted so far all told, most of them of course being subalterns. There is no doubt that officers were more at risk than O/Rs. The troops realised that, which is why many preferred to stay non-commissioned rather than become an officer when the opportunity arose.

Mike

(formatting above added)

This illustrates one of the problems with bald statistics. I guess it is possible to conclude that the "average" officer was more likely to be killed or injured than the "average" for the army, but it hides other information (which may be in the books referred to - I'm afraid I do not have them).

Speculating:

• "Officers" covers a wide range of ranks and corresponding experiences:
  • 2nd Lts, Lts, Capts had a more "front-line" experience than officers in general and were expected to "lead from the front", so should have the highest casualty rate, (almost an expectation of casualties)
  • Majors, Lt-Cols and Brig-Gens might be expected to be involved with the front line, but with the expectation that they should take care not to get killed, injured or captured. (a casualty might be viewed as a failure to take care and a waste of a leadership resource)
  • More senior roles were probably expected to spend most of their time out of relative harms way because that is the only way they could be available to communications and able to have a wider view. Any casualties were most likely to be accidents or the results of enemy shell-fire.
  • Obviously there are huge shades of grey and the divisions are not as clear-cut as above. (You could for instance be a Captain serving in Army headquarters well away from the front-line.)
• Casualties covers, killed, missing, wounded and captured
  • There will again be a different range of statistics as above
• We have to be careful what even the fuller statistics tell us.
  • High rates may indicate:
    • specific bravery, etc.
    • but it may also indicate carelessness,
    • or even just bad luck.
  • Comparison with other ranks is possibly dangerous as officers may have had
    • a greater degree of knowledge of the situation
    • a greater chance to influence the tactics.
  • Junior officers will probably have had a different mind set to other ranks in that they were one leading many, whilst the other ranks were usually one of a group. (Possibly currently serving members of armed forces can tell me whether this is a true perception.)

I'm not wishing to suggest we should not respect those officers who died (just getting on a troop ship to go to the war (front-line or otherwise) - particularly when you had some idea of what you were going to - was in my view brave and deserving respect irrespective of rank), but a senior staff officer doing his duty in a relative place of safety who gets killed by a stray shell will be just as grievously missed by his family as a private or a subaltern killed leading his company in no man's land.

David

[armourersergeant]

Brigadier-General C.G.Rawling, CMG, CIE, FRGS,

G.O.C.62nd Bde, 21st Division was killed in action by a shell in Hooge Crater on the 28th October 1917, whilst talking with friends outside his Brigade Headquarters and is buried at Huts Cemetery, Dickebusch, (now Dikkebus) Belgium.

Does anybody have a photograph of Brig-Gen Rawling they can add to this thread please ?

Philip

If you go to the link at th bottom of my signature you will be able to link through to a bio of Rawling vis the Staff Command page for 21st division. alternatively go here

It is fitting that I am answering this post on this day. There is a photo of him and one of his grave.

Regards

Arm

[Philip Wilson]

If you go to the link at th bottom of my signature you will be able to link through to a bio of Rawling vis the Staff Command page for 21st division. alternatively go here

It is fitting that I am answering this post on this day. There is a photo of him and one of his grave.

Regards

Arm

Arm

Thank you for the link - 'today is clearly a time to reflect and remember those who lost a valued G.O.C. on this day in 1917.'

Philip

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Thanks one and all for the contributions so far.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Frank Davies and Graham Maddocks in Bloody Red Tabs, make it clear from the beginning that they may not have recorded everyone. I have started going through the Gazette during a debate on another thread and came across the man below.

"Mjr and Bt Lt-Col (T/Brig-Gen.) Roland Haig, D.S.O., Rif Bde" earned the second bar to his DSO "For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during a long period of active operations. On one occasion, when there was danger of a line giving way, he rode forward regardless of personal danger, and re-established it. His great courage and untiring energy set a splendid example to all officers and men."

Not only was he in the front line, but riding a horse in 1918, which I regard as worthy of respect if not suicidal by that time. From his entry in O’Moore Creagh’s DSO volumes it seems that he was gassed as a Brig-Gen, but he doesn't appear in Bloody Red Tabs.

[barrieduncan]

Thanks for putting the figures up Mike, and to everyone else for a very interesting thread. Bloody Red Tabs isn't a book I've read, but I think I'll be adding it to my list after reading this thread.

Barrie

[Philip Wilson]

Frank Davies and Graham Maddocks in Bloody Red Tabs, make it clear from the beginning that they may not have recorded everyone.

Yes here is one they missed Temp Brigadier-General S.H.Climo, DSO

In his account of the Battle of Ctesiphon Sir Charles Townsend speaks of "the 30th Brigade under the gallant Climo" and tells us how later on in the conflict Colonel Climo was carried past him "severely wounded in three places, but quite cheery."

Fortunately he survived and in the Third Afghan War and the Campaign in Waziristan 1919-20 he was the Divisional Commander.

Lieut-General Sir Skipton Hill Climo KCB, DSO retired in 1923. His DSO is for the Defence of the Malakand with the 24th Punjabis 1897. During WW1 he was wounded 4 times. Climo was commisioned into the Border Regiment in 1888, before serving with the Indian Staff Corps.

Philip

[Old Owl]

Hi All,

I don't think that anyone has mentioned Major General Sir Thompson Capper,KCMG,CB,DSO, GOC 7th Division, Died of Wounds 27/9/15 and Major General George Handcock Thesiger,CB,CMG,ADC, Cmdg 9th Scottish Division, Killed in Action 26/9/15. Both casualties at the Battle of Loos. Capper was shot through the lungs and died the following day, Thesiger and his Staff Major were killed by the same shell, and all were right in the thick of it and not in a Chateau 10 miles behind the lines.

I believe that the number of Major Generals killed by, or died of wounds as a result of enemy action barely struggles into double figures? But then someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Robert

[armourersergeant]

Here's one Divisional GOC (the first to be killed) and with a little article that I used in the Newsletter of the Northamptonshire branch of the WFA a few years ago.

Respect Amongst Soldiers

Whilst researching Major General Hubert Ion Wetherall Hamilton, commander of 3rd Division in 1914, I discovered some information about his death and subsequent burial. I had found that Hamilton had been a respected and brave soldier who had seen action in many theatres of the world prior to the Great War. He had died almost instantly from artillery fire on 14th October whilst reconnoitring the front line, a death not often associated with Great War Generals. His passing had been a sad loss to the army and especially to an old friend General Sir Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien. In fact Smith-Dorrien had ventured out to over see the burial of his friend whilst under fire in a small Belgian churchyard and wrote of the event,

“ owing to the shell fire it was not possible to bury poor Hamilton until after dark. I shall never forget the scene. It took place in the churchyard of the village of ********* (1) about a mile from where he had fallen. The church itself was only about half a mile behind our outposts. It was a very dark night, and at about 8.30, as many officers as could be collected from the fighting line, all his staff, and several of mine assembled and marched in procession into the churchyard. All the time a determined night attack was being made by the Germans all along our line and just in front of the church was very heavy indeed, so much so that the rattle of machine guns, musketry and artillery fire made it very difficult to hear the Chaplin, the Revd Macpherson, read the service. Quite unmoved by the heavy fire, much of it over our heads at the time, the Chaplin read the funeral service beautifully. It was quite the most impressive funeral I have ever seen or am ever likely to see-and quite the most appropriate to the gallant soldier and fine leader we were laying in his last resting place. I fancy all were much moved by the scene-as I was myself. (2)

He did not however rest long in this grave as after the front had stabilised Hamilton’s family had the body removed to England and buried at Cheriton (St Martin) Churchyard, Kent. The grave and inscription bear no military markings.

It occurred to me that it would be fitting to have a picture of the gravestone and the inscription, so I put a message on the internet site, the Great War Forum. I was not to be disappointed. I received an e-mail telling me that a chap I had never met or ‘talked’ to before had been down and took nine digital photos for me! I cease to be amazed by the camaraderie and knowledge of those that frequent the forum.

He also attached a small explanatory note to my photos that told me a touching story.

Working as a civilian worker at the army camp at Shorncliffe it had not been any hardship to him to nip across and take the photos. But, for help, he had been accompanied by a Gurkha Signals Sergeant in case it proved difficult to find. As it was, only a brief search was required to locate the grave and as they were leaving , after taking the photos, the Sergeant asked once again who the man was that they had been looking for, perhaps confused by the non military bearing of the headstone! On hearing the explanation that he was a General of the First World War, without another word he turned smartly on his heels and marched back to the grave and slung a crisp salute.

Two soldiers almost a century apart yet so close in spirit.

(1) It appears that Smith-Dorrien omitted the church for security reasons, it was La Couture

(2) Taken from transcript of Smith-Dorrien's Diary held at the National Archives Cab 45/206. Also Billy Congreve VC who was an ADC to Hamilton gives a similar account of this incident in his diary.

[armourersergeant]

The first General to be killed in the war was Brigadier General Findley, a former class mate of Haig at Camberley.

Regards

Arm

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Name: LUMSDEN, FREDERICK WILLIAM

Initials: F W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Brigadier General

Regiment/Service: General Staff

Unit Text: Commanding 14th Bde.

Secondary Regiment: Royal Marine Artillery

Secondary Unit Text: late

Age: 45

Date of Death: 04/06/1918

Awards: V C, C B, D S O and 3 Bars, 4 times Mentioned in Despatches

Additional information: Croix de Guerre (France). Son of the late James Foot Lumsden (Indian Civil Service); husband of M. E. A. Lumsden, of Hampton Court Palace, Middlesex.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: III. D. 1.

Cemetery: BERLES NEW MILITARY CEMETERY

Citation: An extract from "The London Gazette," No. 30122, dated 8th June, 1917, records the following:-"For most conspicuous bravery, determination and devotion to duty. Six enemy field guns having been captured, it was necessary to leave them in dug-in positions, 300 yards in advance of the position held by our troops. The enemy kept the captured guns under heavy fire. Maj. Lumsden undertook the duty of bringing the guns into our lines. In order to effect this, he personally led four artillery teams and a party of infantry through the hostile barrage. As one of these teams sustained casualties, he left the remaining teams in a covered position, and, through very heavy rifle, machine gun and shrapnel fire, led the infantry to the guns. By force of example and inspiring energy he succeeded in sending back two teams with guns, going through the barrage with the teams of the third gun. He then returned to the guns to await further teams, and these he succeeded in attaching to two of the three remaining guns, despite rifle fire, which had become intense at short range, and removed the guns to safety. By this time the enemy, in considerable strength, had driven through the infantry covering points, and blown up the breach of the remaining gun. Maj. Lumsden then returned, drove off the enemy, attached the gun to a team and got it away."

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I don't think that anyone has mentioned Major General Sir Thompson Capper,KCMG,CB,DSO, GOC 7th Division, Died of Wounds 27/9/15 and Major General George Handcock Thesiger,CB,CMG,ADC, ...

I believe that the number of Major Generals killed by, or died of wounds as a result of enemy action barely struggles into double figures? But then someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Both Thesiger and Capper were mentioned in post#2.

How many Major Generals would you expect to be killed in action of die of war related causes? I can think of few (Afghanistan 1842 comes to mind), who so died between 1816 and 1913, despite the various campaigns. The very modal of a Modern Major General, Garnet Joseph Wolseley survived repeated campaigns to become a Field Marshal and commander-in-chief.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

It was interesting watching Andrew Marr’s The Making of Modern Britain; he didn’t shy away from the debate on generals and mentioned the idea of refuge in chateaus and that " ... the generals had been blamed for being callous, stupid, and skulking behind the lines … [but he continued that this view was] not quite fair … seventy eight British generals were killed in the war …” Marr also pointed out that “in 1916 nobody knew how to win this kind of war".

… I think it needs to be said that there were many more generals who probably survived the war and never saw a front-line trench. There is also a danger of losing perspective here. Let us not glorify the few who did die for the sake of the countless thousands of ordinary soldiers who also lost their lives. Some balance is needed in the ratio of high-ranking officers to men.

I’m not sure what perspective you think we are in danger of loosing here. This forum has thousands of threads and over a million posts; how does one thread commemorating general officers who were also killed warp the perspective? Is it not possible to remember everyone who died as a direct result of enemy action? In what way has this thread glorified the generals who died? I have seen many posts by people who have contributed to this thread also commemorating ‘ordinary’ soldiers. Although, my view is that there was no such thing in WWI. By this term do you mean privates only? Where should we draw the line at commemorating the dead? Are only sergeants also worthy of commemoration, or maybe it extends up to junior officers? If a man was promoted to field rank was he no longer ordinary and so should no longer be commemorated with the rest of the dead? What balance in the ratio of high-ranking officers to men do you want?

Many more of all ranks that participated survived than died, not just generals. I have met some that survived and bore the scars mental and physical afterwards; I honour and remember them too and was doing so before last week’s Westminster Abbey service. I am interested in the research you have to back the claim that many generals “never saw a front-line trench.” Is there some database that records the location of ever active general, every day of the war? In the limited research that I’ve done it seems to me that many of the generals were Brigadiers and many of them not only saw front-line trenches, but also served in them. By 1918 there were Brigadier-Generals who had started the war as junior officers and I know of at least one who started in the ranks. One of the reasons that Field Marshall French was dismissed was that he was too far forward in the Battle of Loos; he could not be reached to make command decisions. It was not a general’s place to be in the front line; few ‘great’ generals stood in the line with their troops. Napoleon had no problem living in a chateau while his troops were serving dying at the front in Spain. He had even less qualms about abandoning his men and running away to safety; such as in 1812 when his army suffered 90% casualties. Yet he is supposed to be a great general!

[widavies]

Brigadier General Frank Maxwell VC and DSO, a soldier of the highest order, much respected by his men, he was frequently found donning the uniform of a private and leading from the front.

He was eventually shot by a sniper in September 1917 whilst with 27 Brigade, 9th (Scottish) Division.

John

Hi All,

I know this is an old topic, but as it is coming up to the 100th Aniversary of WW1, I noticed this poignant memorial plaque to Brigadier General Maxwell on the wall of Edinburgh Cathedral on a recent visit.

Regards

Will Davies