HELP NEEDED TO IDENTIFY REGIMENT

[ljb]

[ljb]

Sorry my message didn't get added to the post -

Could anyone please help me to identify the regiment that this soldier belonged to?

Thank you

[Steven Broomfield]

It's very blurred: is it possible to have a less-blurred scan, and a close up of the cap badge.

Personally, I'd start the ball rolling with 3rd Dragoon Guards, 10th Hussars, or one of many Yeomanry regiments with prince of Wales's feathers as a cap badge.

[ljb]

Thanks Steven

I had some trouble uploading the photo but don't know why it's so blurred. I scanned it at the library so am unable to rescan it.

To me it looks like a Welsh Regiment badge - would a soldier from Lancashire join that regiment? I also thought the spurs and crop might indicate the Royal Field Artillery.

[Steven Broomfield]

Could be Welsh regiment, but as he's wearing mounted equipment (plus spurs), I'd assumed cavalry. As in my first post, the two regiments mentioned wore the PoW plumes, but so did several yeomanry regiments. If I am right, the 3rd DG recruited "Up North", but I don't know much about cavalry.

I assume you have a name for him - if so, post it and the medal card hounds will be on the case toot sweet.

[keithm]

Liz,

Is the image sharp on your pc? If so try uploading again.

[ljb]

Could be Welsh regiment, but as he's wearing mounted equipment (plus spurs), I'd assumed cavalry. As in my first post, the two regiments mentioned wore the PoW plumes, but so did several yeomanry regiments. If I am right, the 3rd DG recruited "Up North", but I don't know much about cavalry.

I assume you have a name for him - if so, post it and the medal card hounds will be on the case toot sweet.

I think it's a photo of my grandfather William Nuttall. Have looked at Medal Card Index and a lot of William Nuttalls from different regiments (hence my confusion!)

I know he was a POW and the Behind the Wire database have a Pte Nuttall Lancashire Fusiliers under camp/hospital "Emsdetten"

Thanks again for your help

Shredie - don't know what I've done but photo no longer sharp

[MBrockway]

I think it's a photo of my grandfather William Nuttall .... I know he was a POW and the Behind the Wire database have a Pte Nuttall Lancashire Fusiliers under camp/hospital "Emsdetten"

Liz,

For what it's worth, the cap badge in your photo is definitely NOT Lancashire Fusiliers.

Cheers,

Mark

[roughdiamond]

I think it's a photo of my grandfather William Nuttall. Have looked at Medal Card Index and a lot of William Nuttalls from different regiments (hence my confusion!)

I know he was a POW and the Behind the Wire database have a Pte Nuttall Lancashire Fusiliers under camp/hospital "Emsdetten"

Thanks again for your help

Liz

Did he have the middle name Samuel by any chance, if so there is a 15424 Pte later Cpl William Samuel Nuttall of the Welsh Regiment on the NA's MIC's (link below) who would tie in with the cap badge.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=95

If not then a William Nuttall served with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Dragoon Guards (again this may tie in with the badge but it doesn't say if he was 3rd bn) and Royal Warwickshire Regt (see link below).

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[ljb]

No he didn't have a middle name, although I think he may have sometimes used his father's name, Hargreaves, as a middle name.

I am beginning to wonder if the photo is actually of my grandfather as he would have been 26 at the start of the war and the soldier in the photo looks much younger than that to me.

I will try and get another scan done.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Liz

It's fairly obviously taken in a photographer's studio so the crop is probably a "prop."

The uniform is that common to all the mounted services i.e.cavalry, field artillery, ASC and many of the RE. A tiny number of infantrymen wore this kit: the dozen or drivers in a battalion of 1000 men, so he might still be an infantryman though this is less likely.

I should not be too surprised if the photo was of a 26-year old: other contemporary photos show a similar kind of innocence which we see more rarely nowadays,

You really do need to get a clearer close-up of the cap badge to make a better identification. Any chance of that, e.g. taking a magnifying glass to the original photo?

Ron

[ljb]

Hi Ron

Thanks for your suggestions.

I have now bought a new scanner and attach a clearer image. I have also scanned the cap badge but still cannot tell what it says.

I have spent the whole day trying different settings and searching on cap badge sites. I got a cropped and enlarged photo printed at Boots and the only thing I can get from it is that the letters on the scroll seem to start with D or DU. The shape of the badge matches the Denbighshire Hussars but would a born and bred Lancashire lad join this regiment (also checked Medal Card Index and no William Nuttalls in DH)

I have found a photo of grandad with my grandmother and my father aged about 4 so am sure that the soldier is grandad.

Any other suggestions would be most welcome, before I go completely mad!

Thank you

Liz

[SteveE]

The shape of the badge matches the Denbighshire Hussars but would a born and bred Lancashire lad join this regiment (also checked Medal Card Index and no William Nuttalls in DH)

Liz

It's definitely not Denbighshire Hussars, the badge in the photo has a scroll beneath which the Denbighshire badge didn't have. You're looking at either the 3rd Dragoon Guards, 10th Hussars, 12th Lancers or Welsh Regiment. I think the Yeomanry units can be discounted as their scrolls appear longer than in the photo.

Regards

Steve

[ljb]

Steve

Thanks for your reply.

I found the pic of the Denbigh Hussars badge on the Glamorgan Antiques website and thought it looked similar. If you want a look it's under Cap Badges Page 3 Item 9.

I wish I could get a clearer pic of the badge on my grandad's photo.

Regards

Liz

[SteveE]

Liz

I was (and still am) under the impression that the Denbighshire Hussars badge for Other Ranks was the Prince of Wales' feathers without the scroll and the badge with the scroll "Denbighshire Hussars" as per the image indicated was for Officers.

Hopefully somebody can confirm one way or the other.

Regards

Steve

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Liz

It may or may not be relevant that neither 3rd DG nor 10th Hussars (both of which were in 3rd Cav Div) had any OFFICERS taken POW during the war, but 18th Welsh had about ten officers captured on 9 April 1918, and 9th Welsh a similar number on 30 May 1918.

Have you tried searching for "William Nuttall" and "Welsh" in the MICs? That produces only one entry:

Description Medal card of Nuttall, William Samuel

Corps Regiment No Rank

Welsh Regiment 15424 Private

Welsh Regiment 15424 Corporal

This is the same record that roughdiamond has already found in a previous post.

Ron

[roughdiamond]

Liz

I was (and still am) under the impression that the Denbighshire Hussars badge for Other Ranks was the Prince of Wales' feathers without the scroll and the badge with the scroll "Denbighshire Hussars" as per the image indicated was for Officers.

Hopefully somebody can confirm one way or the other.

Regards

Steve

Below is a Cap badge, along with a WW1 pair of medals and a SWB for a Pte in the Denbighshire Hussars, as you'll see it doesn't have a scroll as Steve says, the page link is below it.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Having had a quiet night on Night Shift, I looked at all the William Nuttalls on the National Archives medal rolls and only the 2 I mentioned in a previous post above served in a unit with the Prince of Wales feathers in their cap badge, has anyone checked for a service record for either man? I'd say he has to be either of those, or the photo is not William Nuttall, Liz do you have a Birth or Marriage certificate for your Granddad to confirm he didn't have a middle name? Death Certs sometimes do not list middle names a family members weren't aware of them.

There were lots of William Nuttalls in the Royal Engineers, the Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineers (Royal Mons) have POW feathers on their Cap badge but it has the letters RE on either side of them.

Sam

[ljb]

Hi all

Unfortunately I don't have birth or marriage certificates, he is just shown as William on death cert and 1901 census, although as I said in a previous post he could have had the middle name Hargreaves, as far as I know not Samuel.

I think the most likely is the William Nuttall in he Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Dragoon Guards and Royal Warwickshire Regt. By the way, why would a soldier be in 3 regiments?

My mother thinks he fought at Ypres if that's any help.

Liz

[roughdiamond]

Hi all

Unfortunately I don't have birth or marriage certificates, he is just shown as William on death cert and 1901 census, although as I said in a previous post he could have had the middle name Hargreaves, as far as I know not Samuel.

I think the most likely is the William Nuttall in he Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Dragoon Guards and Royal Warwickshire Regt. By the way, why would a soldier be in 3 regiments?

My mother thinks he fought at Ypres if that's any help.

Liz

Liz

It might be worth asking on the Soldiers forum if someone could look to see if there are service records for both of those William's on Ancestry, if there is one for William Samual it could discount him, make sure you mention he was a POW, there are POW post War interviews held at the NA's and some kind soul may check them for you.

There were officially 5 battles of Ypres, 1st Oct - Nov 1914, 2nd April - May 1915, 3rd July - Nov 1917 (also known as Passchendaele), 4th April 1918 (known as the Battle of Lys or Estaires) and 5th Sept - Oct 1918, as the Ypres salient existed for almost the entire war and most troops served there at some point it doesn't really help, sorry.

Soldiers in WW1 changed Units because theirs had been disbanded, combined, a new unit i.e. MGC or Tank Corps had been formed, a Soldier had been promoted from the ranks or in most cases an injured Soldier returning to fitness was placed where he was needed.

Finally there is a more costly option for you, you can contact the Red Cross on the form below, but as you'll see it costs 200 Swiss Francs and it can take 6 months, they hold records for almost all POW's you may have to get a DOB though.

http://www.icrc.org/eng/contact-archives

Sam

[ljb]

Liz

It might be worth asking on the Soldiers forum if someone could look to see if there are service records for both of those William's on Ancestry, if there is one for William Samual it could discount him, make sure you mention he was a POW, there are POW post War interviews held at the NA's and some kind soul may check them for you.

There were officially 5 battles of Ypres, 1st Oct - Nov 1914, 2nd April - May 1915, 3rd July - Nov 1917 (also known as Passchendaele), 4th April 1918 (known as the Battle of Lys or Estaires) and 5th Sept - Oct 1918, as the Ypres salient existed for almost the entire war and most troops served there at some point it doesn't really help, sorry.

Soldiers in WW1 changed Units because theirs had been disbanded, combined, a new unit i.e. MGC or Tank Corps had been formed, a Soldier had been promoted from the ranks or in most cases an injured Soldier returning to fitness was placed where he was needed.

Finally there is a more costly option for you, you can contact the Red Cross on the form below, but as you'll see it costs 200 Swiss Francs and it can take 6 months, they hold records for almost all POW's you may have to get a DOB though.

http://www.icrc.org/eng/contact-archives

Sam

I have downloaded the Medal Card for William Nuttall in Royal Welsh Fusiliers, D Guards and R Warwickshire Regt; he received the Victory and British medals - Roll L/104 B24 Page 5193

I have searched the National Archives Documents Online for Nuttall in the prisoner of war records and only came across Pte Nuttall of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

As you suggest I will post a request on the Soldier's forum for a search of the service records and if necessary obtain Granddad's birth certificate.

The Red Cross option's too expensive I'm afraid.

Thanks again for your help

Liz

[roughdiamond]

I have downloaded the Medal Card for William Nuttall in Royal Welsh Fusiliers, D Guards and R Warwickshire Regt; he received the Victory and British medals - Roll L/104 B24 Page 5193

I have searched the National Archives Documents Online for Nuttall in the prisoner of war records and only came across Pte Nuttall of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

Thanks again for your help

Liz

Liz

It might be worth asking for the Pals on the Soldiers forum to also see if there is a service record for the William Nuttall you found in the POW records, there is a possibility he was transferred to the Lancashire Fusiliers before being moved to France and that's why it doesn't appear on his MIC, do you know the POW's service No? Does it mention when he was captured?

Also, was POW marked on the service record of the MIC you downloaded? I thought in most cases it would have been.

Sam

[ljb]

Liz

It might be worth asking for the Pals on the Soldiers forum to also see if there is a service record for the William Nuttall you found in the POW records, there is a possibility he was transferred to the Lancashire Fusiliers before being moved to France and that's why it doesn't appear on his MIC, do you know the POW's service No? Does it mention when he was captured?

Also, was POW marked on the service record of the MIC you downloaded? I thought in most cases it would have been.

Sam

Sam

POW was not marked on the MIC I downloaded.

I have discovered a couple more William Nuttalls:

1) On the Manchester Regt Group Forum under POWs - William Nuttall, 16th Btn Manchester Regt, address 1 Oakworth Street, Manchester. There is also a MIC for him. Probably not him as wrong cap badge and Granddad didn't live in Manchester!

2) Pte W Nuttall 4 Durham Light Infantry (Militia)

I only wish that Granddad had a less common name!

Re the Pte Nuttall, Lancs Fusiliers on "Behind the Wire", only states he was at Emsdetten, no other details. I have since found out that Emsdetten was a working camp in the district of Steinfurt, Germany.

I saw your query on the POW section - thanks.

Liz

[Hywyn]

Liz

I came across this whilst researching other matters. Did you resolve it?

I have looked at the Red Cross material for the William Nuttall RWF/Dragoon Guards/33033 R Warwickshire (my interest being RWF connection) and that gives an address for Mrs Nuttall as 186 Whatley Road, Chuttleworth,Ramsbottom. Taken PoW 1st RWR 9 8 1918. Don't know if this link will work

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2990610/1872/40764/

Although the MIC/Medal Rolls given the sequence as above I can tell you that a lot of the RWF numbers around him are Cavalry/Dragoon types transfering in to RWF in December 1916.

Hywyn

edit: I see on Ancestry he has records available. They confirm he was Cavalry then RWF but he then went back to 6 Dragoons (to his old number) and finally to R Warwicks.