WALTER GAWTHORPE, EAST YORKSHIRE/LANCASHIRE FUSILIERS, KIA AUGUST 18th

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

HELLO ALL, I AM NEW TO THIS (EXCELLENT) SITE. I AM THE GREAT GRANDSON OF WALTER GAWTHORPE WHO WAS KIA ON THE SOMME IN AUGUST 1918 AGED 28, HE IS BURIED AT BERTRANCOURT CEMETARY, SOUTH OF ARRAS, IT WAS ORIGINALY A FIELD AMBULANCE STATION SO AM SUMMISING HE WAS WOUNDED AND DIED OF WOUNDS THERE. I HAVE BEEN TO HIS GRAVE TO SAY HELLO AND LAY A WREATH A COUPLE OF TIMES- THE FIRST TIME WAS 11/11/2007 AND WHILE WE WHERE THERE THE LOCAL VILLAGERS CAME AND INVITED US TO THE VILLAGE HALL WHERE THE MAYOR MADE US JOIN THEIR CELEBRATIONS AND LEFT THERE QUITE DRUNK!. I WORK FOR THE MOD AT LECONFIELD NEAR BEVERLEY, EAST YORKSHIRE AND IN MAY 2010 AM TAKING A COACH LOAD OF COLLEAGUES TO YPRES AND SOMME STAYING IN ARRAS. I HAVE TRIED TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT MY GREAT GRANDFATHER WITHOUT MUCH LUCK, I KNOW HE STARTED OUT IN THE EAST YORKSHIRE REGT, SERVICE NUMBER 4185 and 201363, I AM ASSUMING HE WAS PUT IN THE LANCASHIRE FUSILIERS DUE TO DEPLETED REGIMENTS, HIS SEVICE NUMBER IN THE LANCS FUSILIERS WAS 236002, ANY ADVICE OR INFO ON MY GREAT GRANDFATHER WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED, BEST WISHES TO YOU ALL, IAN GAWTHORPE (PROUD YORKSHIREMAN!!).

[Bingo794]

Here is the CWGC entry.

Click on the link.

This confirms his date of death, age, unit, address etc.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=118158

Also his medal index card, which tells us he was entitled to the 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal. He landed in France 27/10/1915.

I had a quick look to see if there were any Service/Pension Records. So far this is all I could find.

If you go to the Long, Long, Trail at the top left of your screen and follow the 'Infantry' link to the 'Lancashire Fusiliers' listing, then click, it will bring up all the units of the Lancs Fusiliers, the 1/8 and the 1/5 Battalions, it seems followed the same history, being early Territorial Force entrants to the war.

The 1/8 went to Egypt 25/09/1914 onto Gallipoli 05/05/1915 becoming part of the 125th Brigade of the 42nd (East Lancs) Division. On to Mudros 28/12/1915 and Egypt.

The unit then went to Marseilles, landing on 27/02/1917, going on to the Western Front. Walter must have joined this unit when it went to the Western Front, some time after the February of 1917. His later East Yorks number will indicate an approximate date. An exact date maybe available from one of the experts on the unit, they maybe able to tell by the regimental numbers.

Also, Charles, a well known East Yorks man, will be able to fill you in on his first units. Again, looking at the first short number, he appears to be a pre-war Territorial. I stand to be corrected.

http://www.east-yorkshire-regiment.co.uk/

The above link is to an excellent site on the East Yorkshire Regiment. They will be able to give you more information. Charles is prominently linked to the site.

Cheers,

Dick W

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

HELLO DICK, THANK YOU FOR GOING TO ALL THE TROUBLE FINDING MORE INFO REGARDING PTE WALTER GAWTHORPE. I DID MANAGE A WHILE AGO TO COME ACROSS HIS SERVICE RECORD CARD, BUT DUE TO MY LACK OF COMPUTER SKILLS NEVER FOUND ANYTHING ELSE ON THE INTERNET. I ALSO REALISED I POSTED ON THE WRONG PART OF THE FORUM, WITH THESE NEW LINKS I CAN HOPEFULLY FIND OUT MORE ABOUT HIM, MY GRANDMA WHO IS 90 IS WALTERS STEP-DAUGHTER, SHE STILL HAS ALL HER WITS ABOUT HER BUT DOES NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT HIM APART FROM WHEN HE WENT AWOL AND CAME BACK TO HULL TO SEE HIS MISSUS WHO WAS ALLEDGEDLY SEEING ANOTHER BLOKE!!, ANYWAY THE REDCAPS CAME AND TOOK HIM BACK!. I AM VERY GRATEFUL TO YOU DICK, TAKE CARE, IAN GAWTHORPE.

[grantowi]

His entry in SDGW (Soldiers who died in the Great War):

Regiment, Corps etc.: Lancashire Fusiliers

Battalion etc.: 1/8th Battalion

Last name: Gawthorpe

First name(s): Walter

Initials: W

Birthplace:

Enlisted: Hull, Yorks

Residence:

Rank: PRIVATE

Number: 236022

Date died: 14 August 1918

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: France & Flanders

Supplementary Notes: FORMERLY 201363, YORKS REGT.

A small point is that you quote his number wrong, too many 00's, not enough 2's

Enjoy the forum and please press the CAPS LOCK button :-)

Grant

[Bingo794]

Yeah! Hit the CAPS LOCK button, mate

If you keep an eye on here, Charles may have more information for you. Or if you contact the East Yorks website and give the details to them for the database, they will probably be able to get the same for you. I noted that Walter's details are not yet included.

Dick

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Ah sorry!, I have emailed Charles regarding my great-grandfather, he is only a couple of miles from where i live, i did go on his website and could not find anything on walter but you never know!, thanks for the replies and the cap locking bit Ian .

[joseph]

Ian,

I have hundreds of Emails so may be a while................?

Walter Joined the 2nd/4th Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment Late May early June 1915 he joined the 1st 4th Battalion on the 2nd November in Armentieres. Posted wounded with the 1st 4th Battalion in the East Yorkshire Regimental Journal for January 1916 so wounded between 4 November 1915 and 18 December 1915.

His first time in the line was on the 3rd November at 7.55pm about 850 yards due West of Chapelle d Armentieres (grid ref; 36.NW.I.10.a.7.0.).

Regards Charles

[Bingo794]

Hi Charles

I sent this link to you in an email, with a couple of other new East Yorkshire lads details which are not yet on the site as yet.

Cheers,

Dick

[joseph]

Cheers Dick,

I'll get through them all eventually, they may slow down over Christmas.......... heres hoping.

Regards Charles

[joseph]

Here is the map reference,

Regards Charles

[Bingo794]

Nice one Charles, rather you than me.

Ian, had a bit of time at Lec, training on Green Goddesses with a TA unit..................many years ago.

What fun that was.

DickW

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Hello again Dick, might be needing them again soon, the way this countries going!, totally off the subject but what is the bike in your user photo, I have a 1981 suzuki gsx1100et, totally standard and in excellent nick, still gives new crotch rockets a run for their money

[Bingo794]

That one there is a Kawasaki ZX6R F3 during race practice for the Derby Phoenix Championship at Cadwell Park 2 years ago.

Oh, you drive one of them buses, do you?

I had a GSXR1100M Slingshot on trial for a couple of weeks, flaming dangerous, flaming quick, and considering I'm a big bloke, hard to get round a corner without getting off

Got a 53 Blade, a CBR600 2004 race bike, and another Kwak ZX6R race bike for competing in the steel frame, pre-injection series. Dashed good fun, don't you know.

We'd better keep on subject and off bikes, on the Personal Message bit. Prefects may come a calling.

Dick Whitworth

[mmm45]

Ian

Have you in your family tree any Gawthorpes from Ravensthorpe near Dewsbury?

If you have there is a write up on a Sydney Gawthorpe KIA with West Ridings in the book " A Village Goes To War". by David Tattersfield.

Ady

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Hello Ady, thanks for the info mate, not sure about Sydney Gawthorpe from Dewsbury but i will try to find out, there does seem to be a lot of Gawthorpes around the west riding and there is Gawthorpe hall (might give em a knock and see if i am the long lost heir to the estate!!) best wishes Ady, Ian.

[mmm45]

My mistake he was Stanley not Sydney!parents Ellen and William

Killed on the sept 3rd attack on the popes nose

Ady

[Guest]

Hello Ian Gawthorpe,

I have come into possession of a replica, not the original, of the Form D that the War Office sent to a Miss P Gawthorpe at 12 Kingston Terrace, Cumberland Street, Hull, on 7 September 1918, informing her that W. Gawthorpe, #236022 of the 1/8 Lancashire Fusiliers had been killed in action on 14 August 1918. I was looking for information about this soldier and came upon your post of some years ago. This form was apparently reproduced "by kind permission of Hull Remembers". I didn't know if you were aware of the existence of this form, or if it has meaning to you, but I would be more than happy to forward it on to you if you would like. I don't know if a reply at this site will trigger an email to my email address, but if you would like to contact me, my name is Vance Boddy at bluewatersailor11@gmail.com. I live in Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

On 01/08/2017 at 03:01, Vance said:

Hello Ian Gawthorpe,

I have come into possession of a replica, not the original, of the Form D that the War Office sent to a Miss P Gawthorpe at 12 Kingston Terrace, Cumberland Street, Hull, on 7 September 1918, informing her that W. Gawthorpe, #236022 of the 1/8 Lancashire Fusiliers had been killed in action on 14 August 1918. I was looking for information about this soldier and came upon your post of some years ago. This form was apparently reproduced "by kind permission of Hull Remembers". I didn't know if you were aware of the existence of this form, or if it has meaning to you, but I would be more than happy to forward it on to you if you would like. I don't know if a reply at this site will trigger an email to my email address, but if you would like to contact me, my name is Vance Boddy at bluewatersailor11@gmail.com. I live in Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

Greetings across the pond!!  only just seen your reply Vance, our family have the original copy of the form, we allowed an organisation in Hull to copy it-seems they have used it for a financial benefit!!!  thanks anyway and sory for late reply my friend, best wishes  Ian Gawthorpe.

[Guest]

Hi Ian Gawthorpe

My name is Jim Graves owner of Rockies Sports Bar in Belfast. Originally from Canada myself Rockies is the only Canadian bar in all of Ireland and widely known as one of the top Ice Hockey Bars in Europe. For the past four years I have hosted a Great War Exhibition in my bar for the summer months. It has been greatly received by media and customers alike for the respect we have placed in displaying our artefacts. My own grandfather James Drummond served in the Royal Canadian Regiment before being wounded in France in 1916. One of the items that I have in our display is a copy of the War Telegram referring to the loss of your great grandfather. This came into my possession a number of years ago. By chance I came across this site as I was researching more info about your great grandfather. My Exhibition supports the Poppy Appeal as our chosen charity. Entrance to the display is free but there is a collection box next to the guest book and we find visitors are happy to contribute. I was wondering if there was a possibility you would allow a photo of your great grandfather to be displayed next to this telegram so we can respectfully tell his story to our visitors. Each item in this exhibition has a story to tell and great efforts are made by me to inform the public of their content. 

I thank you for your time

Jim

Jim Graves

jim@rockiessportsbar.com 

 

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Morning Jim!  Thank you for replying to my post. Firstly- Yes, I will send you copies of Walter and other photos we have. Last Tuesday (14th August 2018) we where at his grave like most years, this time it was to be there for 100 years ago he was killed. We went back to Bertrancourt cemetery where he is buried and spent the further 11 hours with a marching band from Ulster and also Billy Gray. A truly amazing experience watching a full marching band march up to the cemetery where normally there are only my lot there!!. I know it is a touchy subject about marching bands but those lads and the party from WFA were absolutely brilliant fantastic.  I will get things sorted with you in the next couple of days Jim,  I thank you for what you are doing. All the best,  Ian Gawthorpe.

[Guest]

Thank you Ian

I appreciate your efforts. Likewise I just returned from France last month and was able to locate my Great Uncle's name on a cemetery wall. I look forward to obtaining those photos to enhance the memory of your Great Grandfather.

Kind regards

Jim

Jim Graves

jim@rockiessportsbar.com

[sadbrewer]

This may be of interest, from The Hull Daily Mail, August 14th, 1919.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive 

 

 

[Neil M]

Hi, thank you for the newspaper image, much appreciated - I will have to check out if there are any entries for subsequent years for my Great Grandfather...

[Matlock1418]

@EAST YORKSHIRE and @Neil M

Pte Walter GAWTHORPE, 236022, Lancashire Fusiliers

As you probably know he has a CWGC commemoration entry https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/118158/walter-gawthorpe

Of course, there was a further sad aftermath - his widow made a claim for a war pension for herself and for pension allowances for her children under Articles 11 & 12 of the Royal Warrant respectively.  There is a Pension Index Card at the Western Front Association/Fold3 [unfortunately a rather less commonly visited source of info]

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

Much is self-explanatory but a few interpretations for you:

This pension index card was in soldier’s name and there typically was another briefer card in the widow’s name so they could be cross-referenced/accessed [not found].  These lead to a ledger via the claim case references and then to an awards file. Unfortunately, the ledger is lost [probably destroyed] and the awards file probably deliberately destroyed once its use was passed [as was the common case]

The original Ministry of Pensions claim reference was Case No. 4263 [typically we might usually also see a later longer one, but not on this card]

The date of birth, 2.9.91, is his widow’s - required because her pension could be age-related/supplemented if she was >45 [which she obviously was not].

A pension was paid to his widow plus increments for the children. It appears a Bonus was paid. Being paid 25/5 per week from 3.3.19 [there usually was an approx. 6 month gap between death and paying of a pension - in the meantime standard Separation Allowances continued to be paid]. 

The children's allowances were paid to their mother, typically until they reached 16 when such payments ceased [occasionally up to 21 if they were in some form of further vocational training or sometimes if they had impairment/disability] - then the children would certainly be expected to go out to work to earn their keep. Or paid until the earlier death of a child. 

S.A. means Separation Allowance - A portion of a soldier's pay which was matched by the government and sent to his dependants to make sure they were not left destitute while he was on active service.  SA were often more generous than pensions and children’s allowances because a wife had to maintain a home ready for her husband’s return whilst a widow did not have such a need and costs – after all, apparently, she could then cut back and down-size her home!  Typically the number of SA indicated would reflect the number of children. We can however faintly see that there appears to be another child - Pension in respect of George GAWTHORPE (Illegitimate child) not being paid.  S.A. not being paid.

She also quite quickly got a funeral/death Grant of £7 [appearing to be £5 + £1 + £1] to cover incidentals associated with her husband's death - could be for mourning dress for all [though by that stage in the war was probably less commonly worn], newspaper announcements, etc.

N/N is thought to mean 'Noted for Novel' i.e. special treatment/calculation.

50F is the Form 50F used to cease the Separation Allowance and start the pension.

DEAD,1931 indicates the claim became dead eventually - likely because her son, William GAWTHORPE, had reached 16.  This raises the question as to what had happened to his widow, had she remarried [and lost her pension] or had she died before then?

There a few other pensions admin annotations but probably not now of much significance really.

I hope of interest/value to you.

M

[Neil M]

Thank you very much for the concise response, it is very interesting.  Am I reading this correctly that the cause of death was 'Shrapnel' (hand writing isn't very clear).