The Surafend Affair

[PFF]

See CWGC Debt of Honour Register for report of Trooper Lowry burial in Ramleh

(For Refernce only)

[TerryK]

Here is a photo of Leslie Lowry's grave in the CWGC Cemetery at Ramleh.

[wroclaw]

Two hundred men, armed with pick handles, bayonets or iron strips wrapped in puttees or sacks, quietly encircled the village at 8 p.m. One New Zealand witness claimed that British artillerymen from the Ayrshire Battery carrying horse traces (heavy harness chains encased in leather) also took part.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This issue is slightly off topic, but caught my attention for the matter I was wondering about:

Is the fact that all soldiers mentioned (all 3 nationalities) taking part in the incident, were arming themselves with "cold", quite improvised weapons, suggests that they had no access to their service weapons? Or it might be that arming yourself without permission was considered by army authorities as a major felony?

About 2 years later, while the first wave of severe riots were taking place between Arabs, Jews and British, some Jewish soldiers from the Jewish battalions stationed in the same Sarfend army base, had left camp armed without permission. As a result the Jewish battalion was terminated as an organic unit. In this case, soldiers (2 years after the war) had access to fire arms when not of active battle duty.

Regards

[TerryK]

An interesting question, for which there is no definite answer. The attackers would have had access to some firearms, but perhaps only for those on guard duty. I am sure that at least some of the men involved would have carried firearms - the were looking for an armed murderer whose fate if caught would have been the gallows. At least one officer gave evidence that he heard shots from the direction of the village during the attack. The likely fact that most of the attackers did not use firearms suggests to me that a severe beating was their intention. Then again, perhaps they wanted to keep the attack quiet to avoid official interference ... who knows?

[Tom Morgan]

I am sure that at least some of the men involved would have carried firearms - the were looking for an armed murderer whose fate if caught would have been the gallows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt that that would have been his fate - you only have to look at what happened to others when they couldn't find the murderer to see what would have happened to the murderer if they had found him first.

Tom

[TerryK]

Good point!

[clinton]

I would like to re-opwn this thread, but not to discuss the rights and wrongs of what happened at Surafend in December 1918. I am writing the history of the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade in WW1, and the brigade's involvement at Surafend is undisputed. I wish to hear from anyone who has access to primary sources that address the sequence of events from the death of Trooper Leslie Lowrie on the night of the 9th until the attack on the following night, and its consequences. I am particularly interested in establishing what nationalities besides the New Zealanders took part, and in the exact number of casualties. I have reviewed quite a few secondary sources, and the Report of the 2nd LH Brigade's Court of Inquiry (which seems to have been designed solely to establish that no Australians from the brigade took part in the attack), but the reports of the inquiries convened by the NZMR Bde and the 1st LH Bde have not yet surfaced. Please do not reply if you wish to re-litigate the moral issues attendant on the incident. Thank you.

Are you still interested in primary source material regarding NZMR incident at Surafend. I appreciate it is a few years on since your request and that you ahve no doubt moved on however I maybe able to help if you have questions.

[dekenai]

Terry,

It is as l have read it also.

In an interview with Lawerence (l don't have to reference to hand), he intimated that the arab's opinion would have been greatly lowered of the British, if justice (vengence ?) had not taken place. This is how they lived and still today many examples can be had. The troops asked for the guilty to be bought out--what fate awaited him don't know, but l suspect a 'kangaroo' court.

Remember also the troops who fought in Palestine, even though battle weary and war conditioned, still didn't take to the sight of mutilated Yeomanry, as in mutilated after death. The AFC knew full well the terrors of being downed in bedouin territory.

RDC

[Guest]

IIRC this topic was discussed on the ALH forum.

Search Surafend.

Kim

[Oren2k]

On the last few days I'm getting some e-mails on my research about the Surafend affair. and this is because a new Book is coming up soon in Australia by Paul Daily.

A new book is about to cast dark shadows over Anzac mythology, confirming Australian participation in a massacre of Egyptian civilians previously blamed mainly on Kiwis

This quote is from the NZ Herald from Monday 27/7 (today).

I believe Paul is bringing up the massacre again for the wrong reasons. are we really want to find who is to blame for it or we want to look forward and say: No more revenge. Nothing good is coming out of it.

When I started my research I never thought to find somebody to blame for something that happened almost 100 years ago in dark time of war. I want to make this movie to promote peace not to add more fuel to the fire of revenge.

I didn't read the book yet but I order it because I believe it'll add to my research but I do think that it's the wrong way to approach the sensitive subject.

I'm still looking for more personal stories for the movie. If anybody know family member or friend that have any stories from the Surafend affair or from the all NZMR campaign in Palestine please don't hesitate to contact me on may e-mail oren2k@gmail.com or mobile 64(0)21 2157893.

Best to all

Oren

[ianw]

Difficult to judge a book in advance of reading it. I started this thread a long time ago now and would suggest that the importance of these events in terms of putting our relationship with Islam into context gets more important with time.

[john jerome mcmanus]

G'day all,

I would like to let it be known that the Sydney Morning Herald has published a few articles on this issue over the last few days. Whilst they seem to be of little substance they have certainly made me aware of an episode in the history of the ANZACs of which I was totally ignorant.

ps

Oren, if you would like a copy of these articles please send me a PM with your postal details and I will gladly forward them to you.

Regards

Pop

(Sean McManus)

[bluedog]

C.E.W. Bean mentions the Surafend incident in Vol. V11, pages 787-790 in Australia's Official History

The Official History is available online by bringing up the Australian War Memorial site

Peter

[Oren2k]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info. I just download the all Australian's Official History today. If you know anybody with personal stories from the time in Palestine this is what I'm after.

Oren

[Oren2k]

G'day all,

I would like to let it be known that the Sydney Morning Herald has published a few articles on this issue over the last few days. Whilst they seem to be of little substance they have certainly made me aware of an episode in the history of the ANZACs of which I was totally ignorant.

ps

Oren, if you would like a copy of these articles please send me a PM with your postal details and I will gladly forward them to you.

Regards

Pop

(Sean McManus)

G'day Sean,

Thank you for offering. I'll be happy to get a copy of these articles. I'm trying to send a you a message threw this website but I'm getting a error message back all the time.

my postal address is:

Oren Harel

PO Box 56

Whangamata 3643

New Zealand

Or if it's easier for you to send it by e-mail to oren2k@gmail.com.

Thank you

Oren

[dekenai]

g'day all,

point 1. With this incident you cannot compare MyLai, Rwanda-or any other atrocity with Surafend.

point 2. 90 odd years ago, and as contended by Geoff---different era, different men

point 3. We weren't there.

foul deeds of which we haven't any understanding. Arab bedouin tribes mistrusted/hated each other, even on an individual basis. If given the chance some bedouin would have participated with the ANZAC troopers.

Real massacres occured later by retreating Turkish soldiers. They actually murdered ALL the women and children of an Arab village. The arabs in turn massacred ALL the defeated turkish soldiers, including going to a nearby hospital and killing everyone there, turk, austrian, and german.

Part 1

l'll quote some more incidents from Bill Gammage, GEN Ryrie, Frank Reid (camelier), Gullet-all from the book, "The Broken Years". Make of it what you will, but it helps explain the situation, the mindset, and the men of that era. To head off the critics, this is not about justification regarding Surafend.

l'll attempt to set the stage-and apologise for the length.

Gammage;

"Before this offensive in July 1917, 22 % of the ANZAC Mtd Div had 'barcoo rot', septic sores caused by food deficiencies, and the original members of the Regiments were showing a general lassitude and enfeeblement which easily enabled the doctors to distinguish them from later reinforcements. Allenby's tireless advance had further exhausted the men."

COL Mills, DSO VD, 15LH Regt

"not the tiredness thats comes from one or two days of hard work but exhaustion that comes from weeks of long treks, sleepless nights, anxious severe scrapping,little food, cold nights--at least 90% of the Camel Corps hasd caught mange from their camels. This greatly interfered with the mens sleep. Continual scratching broke the skin leading to septic sores."

Gammage,

"The heat and long days in the saddle and the outdoor camps were much the same in Sinai, in Palestine, and in Australia, and if the Light Horseman lost by his separation from home and his subjection to discipline, he gained like minded companions and a sense of elevated purpose”.

“To a man the light horsemen vehemently hated the Arabs. The desert bedouin hung like jackals about the Australian camps, begging and thieving. They were of no consequence racially they were black dirty and they smelt. Like Ryrie at Ziza, the Australians hardly thought it worth mention if a few were killed”.

“But the Arab were also considered treacherous and cruel, readier to pillage than to fight, spies for the Turks, savages who dug up British dead for their equipment, who attacked weaker patrols, who stripped and left to die men lying wounded on the field.”

“Their claim tom have been wronged by ‘men in big hats’ usually bought official retribution and orders to pay damages upon ANZAC heads, yet counter claims were ignored. reason and bigotry developed in the Light Horsemen a murderous hatred toward the desert Arabs, which sometime exploded into action.”

RDC

acknowledgement to Bill Gammage

Part 2 The Incidents

Gammage

"At Hassana in Sinai, men were sent out to round up Bedouins who had fired on Camel Corps Patrols"'

Frank Reid pte ICC

"but when they approached...a bedouin fired at close range, and LCpl MacGregor fell badly wounded..

Later in the day a party of silent grim-faced Cameliers captured the bedouin who had shot the LCpl. With picks, and shovels and rifles they marched out to a sandy hillock, and the bedouin was forced to go with them. half an hour later they returned--without the bedouin".

Lt J R Love, MC DCM 14LH Regt

(at Mejdel on the Sea of gallilee, Sept 18)

The ghoulish inhabitants used to gather rifles from a road and snipe at our column, or shoot from a distance into the camp at night in the hope of dropping a straggler whom they might plunder ans strip. At last a party of road engineers sent out scouts who caught and bought in 6 of these foul vermin, caught lying in wait with rifles in hand. In the presence of the muktar they stood in a row and shot, giving the local inhabitants a wholesome object lesson."

Gammage

(post Surafend)

Allenby abused the ANZAC Mtd Div for the offence and caused much resentment thereby, but relations did not improve between the Arab and the Australians".

GEN Ryrie, Letters, 29/3/19

"In March 1919, during the Egyptian uprising, a Gurkha sentry attached to the 2nd LH BDE, was murdered by Eqyptians. GEN Ryrie asked the village nearby to produce the murderer for execution; on receiving no response, he burnt the village."

Gammage

"The fierce individualism with which they fought Turk, Arab, and English Staff Officer

lay close to the heart of the Australian Light Horseman. He lived under few restraints, and was equally careless of man, God, and nature. Yet he stood by his own standards firmly, remaining brave, loyal to his nates, generous to the Turk, and pledged to King and Country. ".

"Probably his kind will not be seen again, for the conditions of war and peace and romance that produced him have almost entirely disappeared".

Thanks for your indulgence---we'll do well to remember Gammage's last paragraph.

RDC

[Oren2k]

G'day all,

I would like to let it be known that the Sydney Morning Herald has published a few articles on this issue over the last few days. Whilst they seem to be of little substance they have certainly made me aware of an episode in the history of the ANZACs of which I was totally ignorant.

ps

Oren, if you would like a copy of these articles please send me a PM with your postal details and I will gladly forward them to you.

Regards

Pop

(Sean McManus)

Hi Sean,

Thank you for the letter. I got it yesterday.

I would like to let you know that I sign a agreement with a producer and we are in the process of getting founding to the movie.

If I may ask you, do you have any personal connection to the ANZAC forces fighting in Palestine during WWI or do you know any personal story from this time? Not only from the Sarafand affair from the all campaign

You most then welcome to send me your details to oren2k@gmail.com

Thanks for the articles

Oren

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Oren

You might be interested in viewing the following information on the Surafend affair.

On the Australian Light Horse Studies Centre site there is a topic devoted specifically to this unhappy incident. Contained within it are a couple recent accounts but the aim of the topic was to present as much of the contemporary evidence as possible from the various files.

The topic is:

Surafend, the massacre

On this page you will find links to the following items:

Maps

Regional Map

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...8-regional-map/

Australian Official War History

Gullett Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...ullett-account/

ANZAC Mounted Division Assistant Provost Marshal War Diary

Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...arshal-account/

Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal Account about Lowry

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...arshal-account/

New Zealand Accounts

Briscoe Moore Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...-moore-account/

Kinlock Account

Extracted from this thread

Ted Andrews Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...ndrews-account/

Australian Soldier's Testimony

Allman Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...allman-account/

Bodinnar Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...dinnar-account/

Barton Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...barton-account/

Easterbrook Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...rbrook-account/

Fotheringham Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...ingham-account/

Hinton Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...hinton-account/

Mayes Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...-mayes-account/

Mulhall Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...ulhall-account/

Spaven Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...spaven-account/

Stocks Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...stocks-account/

Ted O'Brien Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...obrien-account/

Thompson Account

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...ompson-account/

Newspaper Accounts

Advertiser Account, 22 December 1919, p.12

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...rtiser-account/

The aim of this thread is not to give a definitive account but to present the contemporary view points of those who witnessed part of the build up or the consequences of the action. From there it is up to the readers to make their own minds up about the affair or stimulate them to read further.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Your use of Frank Reid is interesting, can you give me a page number to find it?

"bedouin fired at close range, and LCpl MacGregor fell badly wounded"

There are no Macgregor's in the aussie ICC who were wounded or died?

There was Lt Roy McGregor but he was shot at the battle of Magdhaba.

The man Reid refers to is MacGregor Walter WA. 3919 Pte 7Co 2Bn Ex Scottish Horse (3919) and Royal Highlanders (316093) shot by arabs WIA 18-1-17

So Reid was not a first hand wittness to this as he was in another Bn and must like many of the accounts in his book "The Fighting Cameliers" are second hand and he never saw them. He, like Idriss were very good at spining a good yarn.

That doesn't mean there s not some truth to the story but don't believe ever thing you read.

Cheers

S.B

[john jerome mcmanus]

Hi Sean,

Thank you for the letter. I got it yesterday.

I would like to let you know that I sign a agreement with a producer and we are in the process of getting founding to the movie.

If I may ask you, do you have any personal connection to the ANZAC forces fighting in Palestine during WWI or do you know any personal story from this time? Not only from the Sarafand affair from the all campaign

You most then welcome to send me your details to oren2k@gmail.com

Thanks for the articles

Oren

G'day Oren,

Glad the mail arrived - sorry for any delay in posting it.

To answer your question - no, I do not have any ancestral connection to the ANZACs in Palestine.

My major interest is the actions and history of the 2nd Battalion AIF in which my grandfather served from 1915 to1917.

I would, however, suggest that if you are not already a member, that you contact or join the "Families and Friends of the First AIF".

This is a tremendous organization with members globally. It produces a quarterly magazine called 'Digger' which runs to 60 pages and is full of articles from members covering every aspect of the AIF during the Great War.

I encourage you to visit their web site at: www.fffaif.org.au.

Regards

Pop

(Sean)

[Herekawe]

I am not sure if I am repeating what has been covered in previous threads but I have a book on the shelf called "Kiwi Trooper - The Story of Queen Alexandras Own" published in 1967 in Wanganui. I am not sure how widely it was distributed, it reads more like a local history than something written for mass distribution.

It has a few pages on Surafend and most of the points above as to cause etc. are covered. Naturally (this account spreading the blame evenly) the chief organiser is an ALH Trooper, and also the involvement of "Scottish Troops" is mentioned.

It also mentions that no firearms were used as it was to be a beating, but it turned into a pitched battle.

Allenby turned up (the following Monday 16th December) and began to lecture the mounted troops who were abusive and started counting in unison One - Two - Three... ( was told by General Chaytor he would soon be unable to hold his troops) and as he wheeled and galloped off the troops shouted "Ten - Out!"

The book also has a poem in it evidently publised in the NZRSA Reveiw of 1939 about the affair, its two pages long, and probably gives the old soldiers viewpoint on Allenby and the Arabs, certainly it wouldn't appeal to modern tastes.

It is an interesting book covering from the 1850s on but won't add much to an objective analysis of the "Sura Feen" Affair.

Water under the bridge.

H

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Herekawe

You will find Andrews Kiwi Trooper - The Story of Queen Alexandras Own a fine book when he deals with local issues relating to this volunteer formation in New Zealand. For that local detail, he is excellent.

When he wanders beyond this, he gets into territory for which he is ill equipped to survey. His comments regarding Surafend fall into this category.

You might find the summary by DJ Milnes taken from Imperial Soldiers answers most of your thoughts on the NZ view of Surafend:

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...milnes-account/

Terry Kinlock has also written an excellent summary of the Surafend Affair on this thread.

You will also be aware of the controversy raised by NZTV1 on this issue. The streaming video is available here:

http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday-news/coming-up-su...e-3166105/video

Two important points fabricated in this bizarre contribution to the debate are:

1. The allegation that Tpr Mulhall states in a letter that the number of Arab dead total 137.

You may find the entire Mulhall letter here:

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...ulhall-account/

See if you can find that magical number.

2. That the thief actually came from the village of Nes Ziona.

A quick look at a 1918 map will show the nature of that village. On the Australian Light Horse Studies Centre site there is a contemporaneous map extracted from the Handbook on Palestine, 1917 edition. The map is at:

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...8-regional-map/

Kherbit Surafend is marked on the map with a red cross to ensure it was readily findable. Immediately south of that village is that of Nes Ziona. Apart from the obvious Jewish name, a dead give away in itself, the map marks the village with a Star of David indicating that it was an official Jewish settlement established by the Zionist Movement. The chances of a Palestinian Arab thief living there would be remote indeed.

So after the claims of Boyack and Andrews regarding castrations has been put to bed, now we have NZTV1 trying to sensationalise history by inventing facts to sell a new myth that "NZ'ers are a pack of murdering b###ds just like the Jews today." There is a political corollary in today's charged atmosphere of Israel - "Ergo, the Palestinian Arabs are the victims with no blood on their hands."

Nothing is ever what it seems to be.

Cheers

Bill

[Herekawe]

Thanks for that Bill very informative.

I don't generally watch TVNZ or in fact much documentary TV in NZ at all because sadly the standard as you see is generally very low, and not just when it comes to WW1.

This is an unsavoury incident in a long and bloody war and it is amazing to me that there are always people prepared to reinterpret history using todays standards. Fact is our troops did this, it has been known about for a long time, but I am not going to pretend that I understand the pressures and forces that drove them to do this. We can make theories but we need to remain objective.

It is amazing to me it can get 17 minutes of airtime. This is probably 17 mins more than the whole of the history of the NZ troops battles in Egypt and Palestine have had in the last 12 months, and 15 minutes more than their activities on the Western Front.

H