lionboxer Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Just back from Arras area visiting the sites where our village men were killed. Whilst "watering the horses" behind a bush on the field near Lagnicourt where Lt Pope of the 11th Australians won the VC I found a .303 cartridge case. It was unfired and the bullet had broken away. Now after cleaning it and clearing out the mud and ninety year old cordite the numbers stamped on the base are clearly visible. R 17 L and opposite is VII P. Can anyone tell me what they mean and can it be dated to the time of the battle in 1917? Ironically the Aussie's ran out of ammunition during this attack. I wonder if this cartridge would have made a difference?!! Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Royal Laboratories Woolich Arsenal. 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Yes, and I think the 'P' means Armour Piercing too. Don't know how much armour, but I'd expect 1/2" to 5/8". Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 You actually found quite a scarce cartridge. It is a "Cartridge S.A. Ball .303 inch Mark VII.P" and was approved in November 1916 for Land Service. Your example was made at the Royal Laboratory, Woolwich, as already posted, in 1917. There were a number of different production lines within Woolwich, and they were identified by different versions of the RL code. The version you have with the date between the "R" and the "L" identifies it as having been made at a facility known as Cartridge Factory 5. The VIIP had a stepped or heeled core of hardened steel and remained in service for the rest of the war, although it had been supeceded by the Mark VIIW with a larger diameter core of .25". Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionboxer Posted 18 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Thanks for all that input lads. Do you happen to know the name of the chap (or girl) on the production line who made it, and what he had for breakfast that morning too?!! TonyE I take it you mean that the bullet core was steel instead of lead? Why would this be? Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 The bullet had a hardened steel core, surrounded by a thin sheath of lead, all contained within a cupro-nickel envelope. The reason was that it was an armoiur piercing bullet and the hardened core was the penetrator. A lead cored bullet had far less penetration. (The ordinary British Mark VII ball round had a composite core. The front tip within the jacket was aluminium (later paper, fibre or ceramic) and the rear part lead). Regards TonyE P.S. His name was Fred and he had egg and bacon with a couple of slices of black pudding and a fried slice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionboxer Posted 18 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 September , 2009 You're wrong, it wasn't Fred but Maud. You can see her sitting on her stool at Factory 5. She probably had egg and bacon etc as well though!!http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/H08119 Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 There is a fantastic book on this subject by a bloke calling himself A.O. Edwards 'Headstamps and Markings on .303 inch British Service Ammunition'. It is one of my identification bibles, I would strongly recommend it. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 You're wrong, it wasn't Fred but Maud. You can see her sitting on her stool at Factory 5. She probably had egg and bacon etc as well though!!http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/H08119 Lionboxer Yep, that's 'er, the smiley one, third one in on the far side. No bacon and eggs, though - she 'ad bread an' drippin', and she only got that through going be'ind the gas-shed with Fred. Yer can see 'im watchin' in the background - reckon 'e was jealous of the photographer, but 'e couldn't say nuffin, 'im bein' a married man an' all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 There is a fantastic book on this subject by a bloke calling himself A.O. Edwards 'Headstamps and Markings on .303 inch British Service Ammunition'. It is one of my identification bibles, I would strongly recommend it. Mick Thank you, kind Sir! Regards That bloke A.O.Edwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionboxer Posted 19 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Thank you, kind Sir! Regards That bloke A.O.Edwards From the "horses mouth" so to speak! MikB, did she have his baby? Anyway, thanks to all for this info. I can now impress my fellow history group members with my "knowledge" when we give a talk about our visit to Arras. Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Many thanks for the link to the AWM pictures of both CF3 and CF5. Very interesting. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Thank you, kind Sir! Regards That bloke A.O.Edwards I wasn't sure about giving your name on here so i'm glad you have 'outed' yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 That bloke A.O.Edwards I have met this bloke. The initials A.O. stand for Army Ordnance and he wears gunmetal-coloured shell suits. The resplendent handlebar moustache makes me wonder whether he might be related to the late Jimmy Edwards ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 MikB, did she have his baby? I don't think we'll ever know (she's smilin' 'cause she's just 'eard 'er George was comin' back on leave next week). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 I have met this bloke. The initials A.O. stand for Army Ordnance and he wears gunmetal-coloured shell suits. The resplendent handlebar moustache makes me wonder whether he might be related to the late Jimmy Edwards ... He did make me take one of the less rare, signed books. Presumably so i wouldn't be tempted to flog it on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 My unsigned books are even rarer than Skennerton's! (Sorry, Ian) ...and as for Jimmy Edwards, I neither share the love of the euphonium or any other sort, thank you Siege Gunner! Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Where can I get a copy of this rare book? tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 E-mail me at aoe303(at)btconnect(dot)com Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peashooter Posted 3 April , 2010 Share Posted 3 April , 2010 I thought I was special when you sent me a sign copy of your book Tony, when is the 2nd one due out for sale cheers Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 April , 2010 Share Posted 5 April , 2010 One of the reasons I was in the US was to visit the largest SAA collection in the world to check their .303 headstamps, but for a number of reasons which I will not bore you with I did not make it, so will have to go again later this year. Once that has been completed and a couple of other collections checked the second .303 book will be ready. I cannot give a date but it will probably be the back end of this year. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 10 April , 2010 Admin Share Posted 10 April , 2010 Tony, 'scuse me for interrupting but I was fascinated by this thread. My grandfather, an artilleryman, who died in 1956, when I was 8, kept the attached round (blvd to be a .303) on his mantlepiece. It's the only souvenir I have of him and his service in France and Egypt, his medals are lost and I wonder if you could tell me anything about it. Is it from WW1? Thanks Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 April , 2010 Share Posted 11 April , 2010 Ken, TonyE will of course give the definitive answer but I think that is probably a WWII round - I think the date is 1943 (hence 43 on the case) It also looks (although it is hard to tell without a scale) larger than a .303 round - judging by the primer hole in the middle is it perhaps a .50" (aka 50 caliber) case? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 11 April , 2010 Share Posted 11 April , 2010 Tony, 'scuse me for interrupting but I was fascinated by this thread. My grandfather, an artilleryman, who died in 1956, when I was 8, kept the attached round (blvd to be a .303) on his mantlepiece. It's the only souvenir I have of him and his service in France and Egypt, his medals are lost and I wonder if you could tell me anything about it. Is it from WW1? Thanks Ken American . Twin Cities ordnance plant (TW) Minnisota 1943. No idea of calibre suspect .50 but could just as easy be a .30/06 without something to scale to. .50 cases are common in the uk due to their use in heavy bombers in WW2. After a bombing mission, cases like this would be taken out of the aircraft by the shovel load. Lots of ww2 children had them as souveniers from the airmen. .30/06 cases are sometimes found by metal detectorists on old American training areas in the UK. Could also have been used by 'Dad's army' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peashooter Posted 11 April , 2010 Share Posted 11 April , 2010 what is case length and size Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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