Two badges of rank to identify

[Chris_Baker]

The two fellows shown are in different regiments and are Boer War veterans. Could a uniform expert kindly confirm what the rank insignia are?

[pjjobson]

The Big badge on the upper right arm looks to me like a Guards RSM, the crown on the lower arm would be a Comapny Sergeant Major.

Of course, I could be wrong, my speciality is, after all, Artillery!

Phil

[Graham Stewart]

Tricky one - while agreeing with the large Guards badge noted on the character to the left. Regarding the character on the right, prior to 1915 large crowns on the lower sleeve were actually the rank of 'Sergeant Major', which was the predecesor of the 'Regimental Sergeant Major'. This would possibly account for the officers pattern SD jacket being worn by him. On the introduction of the rank 'CSM' only one crown was worn and that on the lower right cuff.

I think Grumpy will either confirm or deny the latter, but Guards rank can be minefield.

[Chris_Baker]

Thank you for your answers so far. The chap on the left is indeed Scots Guards; the man on the right is South Staffordshire Regiment. I am trying to work out who the latter man is.

I am inclined to think that the man on the right is the RSM (Serjeant Major), and is my namesake Richard Baker. It is this that I would like to confirm. What was puzzling me is that he is wearing an officers tunic - but from what you say above, that would be appropriate for the RSM. Is that right?

I can date the photograph precisely and will resize to show the whole thing when I get a moment.

[Muerrisch]

Why are we denied the full shot, I wonder. The rhs man: Guards Warrant Officer appointed RSM, or ex-RSM. The one on lhs: depends on date as Graham says, but the crown badges were worn [as all ranking] on BOTH sleeves of the SD.

And the Guards RSM is surely on active service: amazing shabby for one so august!

[Chris_Baker]

Full shot, Grumpy.

On board the "Lake Michigan" bound for Zeebrugge. 4-6 October 1914.

[Muerrisch]

Many thanks: beautiful!

[Graham Stewart]

I think we're looking at the three most senior Army NCO's onboard the vessel at that time, as the Jock is a Sgt Major as well, but wearing the crowns in brass. Richard is really looking the part of WOI in his officers pattern SD.

[Rob B]

Looks like he is OIC Troopship, flanked by two CSMs and a Merchant Naval Lt, fantastic picture he is probably holding the muster rolls.

Rob

[Graham Stewart]

QUOTE (Rob B @ Sep 18 2009, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looks like he is OIC Troopship, flanked by two CSMs and a Merchant Naval Lt, fantastic picture he is probably holding the muster rolls.

Rob

Unfortunately they're not CSM's that rank didn't appear until 1915, as did the rank 'RSM'. Prior to this a single crown worn on both cuffs was the rank of 'Sergeant Major', who was supported by Colour Sgt's of which there were eight per battalion. As the infantry Battalion organisation was restructured from eight to four companies, so the rank structure changed - the 'SM' became the 'RSM' and adopted the Royal Arms badge on his cuff - The four senior Colour Sgt's became 'CSM's', wearing a single crown on the lower right cuff - The four junior Colour Sgt's became 'CQMS's' and wore a crown above three chevrons.

Difficult to get your head around and it's taken me years to do so, as I was only familiar with the modern rank structure.

Hopefully I got all of that right or Grumpy will have me guts for garters!!!

[Muerrisch]

I shall have to do without garters, except to point out that 'rank' is a bit of a misnomer ....... the relevant RANKS 1915 were WO Class 1 [appointment RSM or Bandmaster] WO Class 2 [appointment RQMS or CSM] and Colour Sergeant [appointment CQMS]!

[Chris_Baker]

Thank you for all your comments. Excellent stuff. Just to round this off, Richard Baker was killed in action at Armagh Wood on 7 November 1914, just a month after this photo was taken.