Bar to Mons Star

[Purbecksteve]

Please could I request if there is an official medal list for soldiers awarded the bar to the Mons Star

I have all 3 of my grandfathers medals from the Great War. I think I remember playing with the medals when younger and I believe he had the bar but it was mislaid. I wish to confirm he was awarded the Bar?

My grandfather was Charles Davis 3-5642 Dorset Regiment. 1909-1916 1916-1919.

Thank you for any information.

[Rockdoc]

The information should be on the medal index card (MIC), which you can buy and download from the National Archives. As you can see on my Grandfather's card, the record says Clasp, which means the bar.

Keith

[Donny Anderson]

Here is your Grandfathers MIC, no mention of the clasp, but that could mean he never claimed it, also there seems to have been an enquiry in 1984 regarding his entitlement/issue of medals. The rear of the card is blank.

Donny

[Muerrisch]

1 Dorsets are listed as entitled to the clasp in AO 1919. This does not establish entitlement to an individual, as each man needed to demonstrate that he was on the strength. Nevertheless, it is probably more likely than not that he was entitled. I would add that his number prefix 3 suggests strongly that he was a Special Reservist called to the colours.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Sometimes the medal roll shows the clasp being issued when the index card doesn't.

[dycer]

Many Men who were entitled,chose not to claim,or many who were entitled to claim,their relatives chose not claim.on their behalf.

George

[Purbecksteve]

Thank you Team.

I know from chatting to him many years ago he mentioned that he was at the front not long after getting off the boat but like a most of those fellows they chose to to keep a lot of stuff inside. He was severely wounded in Mesopotamia by shrapnel and had to wear a leather brace on his arm for the rest of his life.

Yes he was in the Dorset Militia in 1909 and told a fib about his age up to enlist,he was born in 1892. I was in the forces myself and on my leaves as he was near the end of his life I use to sit and chat with him . He died at the age of 79 (Lung Cancer).

QUOTE (per ardua per mare per terram @ Sep 3 2009, 06:09 PM) Sometimes the medal roll shows the clasp being issued when the index card doesn't.

Thanks ,

I did send an enquiry to the Keep in Dorchester to see if they might have the medal rolls. Will keep you all posted.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The medals rolls are held at Kew, if you put a request for a document request, someone may get it for you. The BWM & VM roll might show if he served in a different battalion.

WO 329/1287 Scope and content Dorsetshire Regiment other ranks: medal rolls C/2/101B: C/2/101B1: C/2/101B2: C/2/101B3: C/2/101B4: C/2/101B5. Pages 1-350. British War Medal and Victory Medal

WO 329/2457 Dorsetshire Regiment 1914 Star: other ranks.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Many Men who were entitled,chose not to claim,or many who were entitled to claim,their relatives chose not claim.on their behalf.

Many men who were entitled, especially in the Navy, were denied it altogether.

[Purbecksteve]

The medals rolls are held at Kew, if you put a request for a document request, someone may get it for you. The BWM & VM roll might show if he served in a different battalion.

WO 329/1287 Scope and content Dorsetshire Regiment other ranks: medal rolls C/2/101B: C/2/101B1: C/2/101B2: C/2/101B3: C/2/101B4: C/2/101B5. Pages 1-350. British War Medal and Victory Medal

WO 329/2457 Dorsetshire Regiment 1914 Star: other ranks.

Thanks will do.

[Purbecksteve]

Managed to get this info from the Keep in Dorchester.

Charles Davis's first discharge form shows that he was originally a member of the 3rd Battalion The Dorsetshire Regiment, This is also indicated by the 3 prefixing his number.The 3rd Battalion were a former Militia Battalion which became a Special Reserve Territorial Army Battalion in 1908. They were based at the Depot in Dorchester. Although most members were 'part time' soldiers, the Battalion also had a large permemant staff. Its function was mainly training, especially after mobilisation. Members of the 3rd Battalion were liable for service overseas if called upon - they had no choice in this. When war broke out it was a case of being sent where you were told, not volunteering. As a result most of the members of the 3rd Battalion were drafted straight into the 1st Battalion The Dorsetshire Regiment to bring the battalion up to strength with trained men. The 1st Battalion had gone straight out to France with the British Expeditionary Force and had already lost men at the Battle of Mons by the time Charles Davis joined them. (The remainder of the 3rd Battalion, mainly those on the permenant staff, spent the war in Wyke Regis, near Weymouth, training many thousands of men for transfer to front line battalions). There were no bars awarded for WW1 Medals. If a man had served under fire in France and Flanders during the period 14 August - 22 November 1914 he was awarded the Clasp and Roses to wear on his 1914 star. This is always referred to on the medal card. There is no reference to this on Charles Davis's card. If a man served in France and Flanders during this time period, but was not under fire, he was awarded the medal alone - which is what Charles Davis received, so although he arrived in France on 19 September 1914, he did not see action until sometime after the 22 November.

[Chris_Baker]

I don't think the last four lines of that are correct.

[Purbecksteve]

I don't think the last four lines of that are correct.

Chris, Thanks for responding , would you possibly be able to expand on your comment. Cheers Steve

The notes came from a researcher at the Keep Museum of the Dorset Regiment. Any information would be appreciated .

I thought he arrived on the 12th September 14.

[dycer]

Steve,

The odds on a trained infantryman arriving in France in September 1914 and not seeing action before November are long.

I have two Trios to Relatives who landed in France on 5th November 1914.Neither received the Clasp and Roses.Their Battalion War Diary and History record that it reached the front line on 15th November 1914 and this is signified by members of the Battalion claiming their Clasp and Roses per Medal Roll.Both my Relatives were members of the Battalion Maxim Gun Section which I would suggest would have been one of the first to see action or strategically placed to give covering fire.

In their case neither survived the War so it is perfectly plausible that no Family Member was prepared or realised a claim for the Clasp could be made on their behalf.

Is it more likely that your man was entitled to claim but either did not claim or was not informed that he should claim?

George

[Purbecksteve]

Steve,

The odds on a trained infantryman arriving in France in September 1914 and not seeing action before November are long.

I have two Trios to Relatives who landed in France on 5th November 1914.Neither received the Clasp and Roses.Their Battalion War Diary and History record that it reached the front line on 15th November 1914 and this is signified by members of the Battalion claiming their Clasp and Roses per Medal Roll.Both my Relatives were members of the Battalion Maxim Gun Section which I would suggest would have been one of the first to see action or strategically placed to give covering fire.

In their case neither survived the War so it is perfectly plausible that no Family Member was prepared or realised a claim for the Clasp could be made on their behalf.

Is it more likely that your man was entitled to claim but either did not claim or was not informed that he should claim?

George

Thank you George.

Charles was seriously wounded in Mesopotamia in 1918 and spent along time recuperating so I would imagine claiming anything was the last thing on his mind. My father who is 86 recently informed that he thinks his father mentioned he had spent time recuperating in the hospital at Brockenhurst,Hants.

Steve

[Bombadier]

They may not be referred to on the front of the MIC but could be on the back, which is the case with my grandfather's MIC. National Archives, front of card only so clasp not mentioned.

Ancestry, both sides visible so award of clasp recorded.

Nigel

[Purbecksteve]

They may not be referred to on the front of the MIC but could be on the back, which is the case with my grandfather's MIC. National Archives, front of card only so clasp not mentioned.

Ancestry, both sides visible so award of clasp recorded.

Nigel

Thanks for your input Bombadier. Steve

[dycer]

Steve,

It may be worth trying to have a look at the Battalion War Diary,possibly the Keep can help you.

Many War Diaries record the arrival of drafts of replacement men e.g. 25th December 1914-Arrival of Draft of 1 Officer and 82 Other Ranks(This extract is taken from a Scots Battalion War Diary so has no significance to your research).

If the Dorset War Diary records the receipt of a draft of men in September 1914?.I'm sure you can follow my logic.

George

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Or you could download the war diary rather than contact the Keep again:

5 DIVISION, 15 INFANTRY BRIGADE: 6 Battalion Cheshire Regiment 1914 Aug. - 1916 Feb./ 1 Battalion Dorsetshire Regiment 1914 Aug. - 1915 Dec./ 6 Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment 1915 Feb. - Dec.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Ancestry, both sides visible so award of clasp recorded.

In post #3 we were informed that The rear of the card is blank. These cards are merely indexes for the medal rolls.

[Marc Thompson]

I don't have the medal roll entry for the 1914 Star but I do have the BWM & VM roll page that includes Charles Davis. This confirms that 3/5642 Pte Charles Davis saw overseas service in a theatre of war with 1/Dorsets and was discharged 'Termination of Engagement' 20/01/1916. He subsequently saw service under Regtl No. 24138 with 2/Dorsets being discharged medically unfit 16/09/1919. The Dorsets aren't my area of expertise but it looks like Charles Davis was recalled to the Colours for the duration of the war under the Military Service Act(s) of 1916 having previously been time-expired.

I can look up his 14 Star entry on the medal roll in the next 2/3 weeks if this remains an outstanding issue then.

Marc

[Marc Thompson]

Below is the 1914 Star medal roll entry which includes 3/5642 Pte C. Davis. No indication of a Clasp & Roses but I have still to figure out why some entries are underlined in red and others not. The absence of an entry against his name does not necessarily imply a lack of entitlement to a Clasp & Roses, more likely that it wasn't claimed (C & R had to be applied for and approved).

The blue 'C' marked against J. Davidson indicates the issue of the Clasp only, most likely claimed by his next of kin.

Marc

[SPotter]

Steve,

The blue C is found against those men who were either killed in action or died of wounds within the qualification period of the Aug-Nov bar. In these cases the clasp only was automatically awarded without being claimed, as the fact that they met their untimely end at the hand of the enemy being sufficient proof of eligibility. No roses were awarded obviously, as these were intended to be worn on the ribbon bar when ribbons only were worn. This would not be the case in these circumstances as the medals and clasp would basically be kept by the relatives as 'momentos'.

Regards

Steve

[dycer]

Steve,

Interesting point and one I would not disagree with,especially just the award of the Clasp to those who were killed.

It would appear,however,that many who were entitled but were killed after November 1914 were not issued with the Clasp automatically.Their Families having to make a claim on their behalf,many NofK not choosing to do so.

George

[SPotter]

George,

Absolutely. I was going to make the same comment. I imagine the reason why the same policy wasn't extended to those killed after the cut-off date was simply that it was no longer guaranteed that the soldier was eligible. For the late 1914 casualties it is highly likely that they would have qualified, but it is possible for a soldier to have arrived in theatre during the qualifying period, but not have moved to the front until after the cut off date, and been killed shortly thereafter.

Regards

Steve