Waddell Posted 31 August , 2009 Share Posted 31 August , 2009 I've noticed a lot of AIF soldiers I've been looking at have previous military experience either in the militia and/or cadet forces. I understand that this was due to legislation introduced in 1911 for compulsory military service. Can someone explain how these units were numbered and designated? In particular the New South Wales units? I have seen references to 20th,25th (Sydney Scottish Rifles), 26th and 39th Infantry, Ashfield CMF, Sydney University Scouts, etc. I'm finding it hard to find information on these pre-war units and would be interested in seeing a list naming them. Thanks, Scott Note- 39th are not the 39th Militia battalion sent to Kokoda in WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 31 August , 2009 Share Posted 31 August , 2009 Scott Do I assume that because you have mentioned the Kodoka WW2 reference that you have already read the Wikipedia entry ? Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 31 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2009 No Sotonmate that would be wrong. 39th Battalion is very well known out here due to its actions at Kokoda. It was Melbourne based whereas the one I have seen mentioned was a Sydney unit(?). I've had a look at that Wiki article but it just describes the larger chronological picture. I'm interested in knowing the details of which units were NSW based and where they were based,drilled, etc. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Starlight Posted 1 September , 2009 Share Posted 1 September , 2009 Have a look here for some basic information => http://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/publication...eets/fs160.aspx I think you will have to delve fairly deeply into the NAA to get the information you are after. AFAIK there has been no definitive publication on the universal military training scheme as it it existed between 1911 and 1929 (and its effect on two world wars). There is mention of it in Mordike, John: An Army for a Nation, A History of Australian Military Developments 1880-1914, St Leonards, Allen and Unwin in Association with The Directorate of Army Studies, 1992 There is also Falling in: Australians and "Boy Conscription" 1911–1915 , John Barrett (1979) It may also be mentioned in The Australian Army: A History by Jeffrey Grey (originally released as part of the Centenary History of the The Australian centenary history of defence series but I dee it is now out as a separate book. PS Just found this => http://www.defence.gov.au/army/AHU/docs/Th...y_1901-1904.pdf (Did not know Ric had written this - must complement him when I see him at the next Chief of Army Conference!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 1 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 September , 2009 I think you will have to delve fairly deeply into the NAA to get the information you are after. AFAIK there has been no definitive publication on the universal military training scheme as it it existed between 1911 and 1929 (and its effect on two world wars). Thanks Starlight. That's pretty much the basics I have seen elsewhere. I fear you are right in saying that it is an area that hasn't had much attention spent upon it, unlike pre-federation units. A fair few Australian battalion histories and the like referring to men serving in these units, its just difficult to pin down where each one fits geographically. It seems as though the numbering of First AIF Battalions is totally different. I'll keep asking and looking although it doesn't look as though a list has ever been available. I'm just trying to tie down how and where some men in these units knew each other prior to the war. Just a note that on Grants militaria website there are some nice photos of equipment and uniforms worn by the militia and cadets before the war and I now know where those .310 cadet rifles and British looking forage caps originated from. Regards, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 1 September , 2009 Share Posted 1 September , 2009 Mate, I am sure there is a Webb site on this but heres the basic; 2nd Bde (Qld) 2nd Inf Regt (all Qld) 3rd Inf Regt 4th Inf Regt 7th Inf Regt 8th Inf Regt 9th Inf Regt 11th Inf Regt 5th Bde (NSW) 6th Bde (NSW) 8th Bde (NSW) 10th Bde (NSW) 14th Inf Regt (all NSW) 16th Inf Regt 18th Inf Regt 19th Inf Regt 21st Inf Regt 24th Inf Regt 25th Inf Regt (Scottish Rifles) 26th Inf Regt 29th Inf Regt (Australian Rifles) 31st Inf Regt 33rd Inf Regt (Irish Rifles) 34th Inf Regt 37th Inf Regt 38th Inf Regt (St Georges Rifles) 39th Inf Regt 41st Inf Regt 43rd Inf Regt SUS (Sydney University Scouts) 13th Bde (Vic) 16th Bde (Vic) 17th Bde (Vic) 18th Bde (Vic) 46th Inf Regt (all Vict) 48th Inf Regt 49th Inf Regt 51st Inf Regt (Victorian Scottish) 53nd Inf Regt 55th Inf Regt 56th Inf Regt 58th Inf Regt 60th Inf Regt 63rd Inf Regt 64th Inf Regt 66th Inf Regt 67th Inf Regt 70th Inf Regt 71st Inf Regt 73rd Inf Regt (Victoria Rangers) MUR (Melbourne University Rifles) 19th Bde (SA) 74th Inf Regt (all South Australian) 76th Inf Regt 78th Inf regt 79th Inf Regt 81st Inf Regt 22nd Bde (WA) 84th Inf Regt (all West Australian) 88th Inf Regt 88th Inf Regt 23rd Bde (Tas) 91st Inf Regt (all Tasmania) 92nd Inf Regt 93rd Inf Regt As to the Regts you mention 20th Inf Regt (was pre reforms of 1912) 25th Inf Regt (Scottish Rifles) 26th Inf Regt (has no name) 39th Inf Regt (has no name) SUS (was a regt raised at Sydney Uni from students) Many of these Regt have a local name like 31st Inf Regt (Leichhardt) 46th Inf Regt (Brighton Rifles) to name a few S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidale Posted 1 September , 2009 Share Posted 1 September , 2009 Scott Keep searching, the info is out there somewhere. I know that I have seen a diagram for the composition of the Victorian Battalions. It looked just like a rising sun badge with wedges with the pointy bits 'meeting' in Melbourne and the fat bits touching the coast or the Murray. Each wedge took in a few metro and a few regional or country drill halls. The Militia units based in those drill halls then formed the nucleus of the first 4 [or maybe 6] Victorian AIF Battalions. There was therefore a mixture of town and country, Sydney and the bush, in each Battalion. The major regional centres such as Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Benalla and Sale were in adjoining wedges and therefor adjoining battalions. If you wanna test the theory, go to the embarkation rolls of a NSW Batt (1 to 4). Note the grouping of the Numbers Steve has quoted and the relevant home addresses. They will be grouped by companies...initially 8... and bobs yer uncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 1 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 September , 2009 Thanks Steve. That listing is useful and I appreciate it. I should be able to further tie down some locations of the units as Amidale suggested. I have a feeling 39th was based around Parramatta. 20th regiment being before 1912 reforms would also fit details for a particular man. A very confusing area this as it appears there were many re-organisations within the army up until the late 1930's. Regards, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Starlight Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 Yes Scott - there were many "reorgs" from pre-Federation to the 1930s (and a similar large scale "reorgs" in 1948 (reforming the CMF), early 1960's (rise of the pentomic division and its demise - created organisations like the RSAR, RWAR, RVR, etc) and 1975 (finally realising that conscrition had ended and many units were no longer viable plus ending of RASC). The numbering of units pre-WW1 for instance borne no resemblance to the mobilisation plans of Bridges and White for the AIF. If I remember will try and track down LtCol John Jackson (retd) - he was an expert on organisations of the Army over this period. Hope to catch up with him next month. I don't think he published anything on it (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 HI If you can get hold of a copy of this book "The Lineage of the Australian Army" by Alfred N. Festberg, 1972 I think that it will answer all of your questions. It covers the units from prior to Federation to 1971. There is a copy in the reading room at the National Archives of Australia Terry Barrett West Aust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Starlight Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 HI If you can get hold of a copy of this book "The Lineage of the Australian Army" by Alfred N. Festberg, 1972 I think that it will answer all of your questions. It covers the units from prior to Federation to 1971. There is a copy in the reading room at the National Archives of Australia Terry Barrett West Aust From memory that was a book of illustration of a uniform on one side and explanation on the other ? Found this by Peter Stanley using just one unit as an example => http://www.defence.gov.au/Army/AHU/docs/A_...ice_Stanley.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 Mate, Armidale NSW the local Regt is shown in 1914 as 14th (Hunter River) Inf Regt. (each Inf Regt had eight Companies) ACo - Armidale - Hillgrove - Uralla BCo - West Maitland CCo - Singleton - Scone - Musswellbrook and so on with towns along the Hunter valley. The 39th Inf Regt had no name but was raised as one of many inner suburb of Sydney Regts ACo - Ashfield BCo - Ashfield - Croydon CCo - Auburn DCo - Belmore - Bankstown ECo - Enfield - Burwood FCo - Canterbury - Campsie - Hurlstone Park GCo - Burwood - Strathfield HCo - Homebush - Rookwood The closest Inf Regt to Parramatta is: G and HCo's 19th Inf Regt (it has no name) The Australia Army was formed in 1904/5 but in 1912 the first reforms reduced the Regts and changed the State of that Regt. For example the 1st LHR in 1904 was the NSWL (New South Wales Lancers) based in Sydney but in 1912 reforms the 1st LHR became the Central Queensland Light Horse based in Rockhampton. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidale Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 HI If you can get hold of a copy of this book "The Lineage of the Australian Army" by Alfred N. Festberg, 1972 I think that it will answer all of your questions. It covers the units from prior to Federation to 1971. There is a copy in the reading room at the National Archives of Australia Terry Barrett West Aust Terry Are you related to the late Dr Barrett? Quote "There is also Falling in: Australians and "Boy Conscription" 1911–1915 , John Barrett (1979)" If so, I had the absolute honour of studying Australian Military and Colonial History under him at La Trobe in Melbourne. If not, I suggest you look him up in the Australian Dictionary of Biography, and take particular note of his magnaminous bequests to the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 HI Not related to Dr Barrett. Capt Starlight, you are refering to a different book. The lineage of the Australian Army is as the title says it follows each unit from from when it was formed up until 1972. Terry Barrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 Hello Scott ! The 29th would have been a NSW militia battalion as one of my relatives, resident in Balmain, served with that unit before joining the AIF. Hope this might be of some help. Regards Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 2 September , 2009 Share Posted 2 September , 2009 Waddell, When the Australian Army, part time force, was created in 1901 from the militia and volunteer Colonial units in each State, the militia infantry units were formed into Commonwealth Regiments numbered 1st to 12th Australian Infantry Regiments (AIR) with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th AIR being NSW Regiments. There were also volunteer units and in NSW these included The Australian Rifle Regiment, The St George's English Rifle Regiment, the 1st and 2nd NSW Scottish Regiments, The NSW Irish Regiment, The Civil Service Rifles and The Sydney University Scouts. The LH Regiments in NSW were 1st (NSW Lancers), 2nd (NSW Mounted Rifles), 3rd (Australian Horse), 4th (Hunter River lancers), 5th (Northern River Lancers), and 6th (New England Light Horse) In 1911 the Army was re-organised under the compulsory military service scheme and all brought under one umbrella as the Citizen Military Forces (CMF). The units were organised within military districts based on the six States of the Commonwealth as follows 1st Military District (Queensland) 2nd Military District (New South Wales) 3rd Military District ( Victoria) 4th Military District (South Australia) 5th Miltary District ( Western australia) 6th Military District ( Tasmania) Within these Military Districts units were allocated numbers and from various old military sources I have identified the following: Within the 2nd Military District (NSW) these were: LIGHT HORSE 5th LH Regt ( New England Light Horse) 6th LH Regt ( Hunter River Lancers) 7th LH Regt (New South Wales Lancers) 9th LH Regt ( New South Wales Mounted Rifles) 11th LH Regt (Australian Horse) 28th LH Regt INFANTRY (allocated 14th to 44th). Following appear to have been raised: (Note that some numbers were spares in each State) 14th Infantry (Hunter River) 16th Infantry (Newcastle) 18th Infantry (North Sydney) 19th Infantry (Kuring-gai) 20th Infantry (Parramatta) 21st Infantry (Woollahra) 24th Infantry (East Sydney) 25th Infantry (City of Sydney) 26th Infantry 29th Infantry (Australian Rifles) 31st Infantry (Leichardt) 33rd Infantry 34th Infantry 35th Infantry 36th Infantry 37th Infantry (Illawarra) 38th Infantry 39th Infantry 40th Infantry 41st Infantry (Blue Mountains) 42nd Infantry (Lachlan - Macquarie) 43rd Infantry (Werriwa) 44th Infantry (Riverina) Sydney University Scouts The AIF was raised as a volunteer force for war service and was a different force to the above units, After the war, the CMF numbers were abolished and the old AIF numbers were allocated to the CMF battalions generally along the lines of CMF units being allocated the numbers of the AIF Battalions that were raised from each State. Note some units were allocted numbers of units that had been raised in other States, for example the 51st Bn AIF was a Western Australian unit but the number went to the 51st Bn (CMF) (Far North Queensland)!! NSW units became the 1st to 4th, 13th, 17th to 20th, 30th,33rd to 36th, 45th, and 53rd to 56th Battalions but there were amalgamations throughout the 1930's that makes the trail confusing. Hope this is of some assistance. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 2 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 September , 2009 Thanks for the replies with this. Starting to get a good understanding of the locations. Chris and Steve in particular, the info on the 20th and 39th lines up with the men I'm looking at. Agreed it is very confusing. I believe the 19th Kuringai later became the 18th Kuringai Rifles in the late 30's. I've also seen a figure that only 15% of the First AIF had previous military service (Boer war or militia) prior to enlistment. Do you think this figure might be a bit low considering that service was compulsory? I'm thinking that not all that enlisted mentioned their previous service. And it also seems that it did not guarantee acceptance in the early years regardless. Scott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 3 September , 2009 Share Posted 3 September , 2009 Mate, Its best to stay away from unit names and numbers post Great War as the reforms of 1919 changed all Regts to aline them with the old AIF. Service documents of the Great war AIF all shown either Regts and units from the 1904 or 1912 periods. Added to the problems here are the cadet units which were shown as Bn's For example the 39th Bn (cadet) is shown as Ashfield and Canterbury. 20th Bn (cadet) is shown as Granville and Parramatta. Most young boys would have served in a cadet Bn untill old enough to enlist in a Milita Regt. The Local or closest Milita Regt is as I have mentioned. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 3 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 September , 2009 Mate, Its best to stay away from unit names and numbers post Great War as the reforms of 1919 changed all Regts to aline them with the old AIF. Service documents of the Great war AIF all shown either Regts and units from the 1904 or 1912 periods. Added to the problems here are the cadet units which were shown as Bn's S.B I take your point Steve. Do you know if 20th Bn (Cadet) shown as Parramatta and Granville included The Kings School Cadet Corps? or were they separate again? I have seen mention of cadets and senior cadets. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 3 September , 2009 Share Posted 3 September , 2009 Agreed it is very confusing. I believe the 19th Kuringai later became the 18th Kuringai Rifles in the late 30's. Scott, I tend to agree with Steve that it is best not to align pre-war units with the post war AIF re -numbering system. Certainly the post war 18th Battalion was titled The Kurang-gai Regiment but whether this was a re-naming of the old 19th Infantry I am not sure. I can't help re The King's School Cadet Unit. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 3 September , 2009 Share Posted 3 September , 2009 Steve, You raise an interesting point re the cadet units being numbered as infantry regiments and being different units to the Militia Battalions post senior cadet stage of the compulsory training system. This may explain the differences in Regiments in the sources I have come across. A 1913 list of Army units has the following as the Infantry Regimnts in 2nd Military District: 14th Infantry 16th Infantry (Newcastle) 18th Infantry 21st Infantry (Sydney battalion) 24th Infantry (2nd Sydney battalion) 25th Infantry 29th Infantry (Australian Rifles) 31st Infantry 33rd Infantry 39th Infantry 41st Infantry 43rd Infantry Sydney University Scouts. My initial reaction is that these may be the Militai Regiments as opposed to cadet battalions, although you have the 39th as a cadet battalion. Do you have a list that distinguishes between cadet battalions and militia battalions? The list above aligns with the known Militia battalions in the 5th Military District: the 84th Infantry (Goldfields Regiment), the 86th Infantry (Western Australian Rifles) and the 88th Infantry (Perth). Regarding brigades the 1913 list has the following: 1st Military District - 1st LH Brigade and 2nd Infantry Brigade 2nd Military District - 2nd and 3rd LH Brigades, 1st Field Artillery Brigade and 6th and 8th Infantry Brigades 3rd Military District - 5th and 7th LH Brigades, 2nd Field Artillery Brigade and 16th and 17th Infantry Brigades. 4th Military District - 8th LH Brigade and 19th Infantry Brigade 5th Military District - 22nd Infantry Brigade 6th Military District - 23rd Infantry Brigade. In total, it lists five MD HQ, seven LH Brigades, two Field Artillery Brigades, eight infantry brigades, twenty three LH Regiments, nineteen batteries of Field Artillery, forty three infantry regiments and two university battalions Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 3 September , 2009 Share Posted 3 September , 2009 Mate, It is my understanding that all the big Privete Schools had their own cadet units. But Yes, the Kings School is near Parramatta, but I am unsure if it was part of the 20th Bn (cadet). S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 3 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 September , 2009 Thanks Steve and Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 4 September , 2009 Share Posted 4 September , 2009 Wayne, Yes the 29th Bn (cadet) was Glebe - Forrect Lodge Glebe is near Balmain The 30th Bn (cadet) was shown as East Balmain - Rozelle S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waddell Posted 10 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 September , 2009 Steve, I found that list of units on a website as you mentioned. http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-confli...-units-1911.htm Regards, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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