Kings Royal Rifle Corps Regimental No.

[Waddell]

After a false start I managed to track down my Great Uncle's MIC and service record (what's left of it). He served in the Lovat Scouts and this is supported on his MIC and the records. On his MIC however it indicates that at some stage he served in the KRRC. His name was John Todd Clark and his regimental number in this regiment was R/35302.

I note on the LLT site that the R prefix is not unusual.

I have a feeling this may have been towards the end of the war. Can any of the Rifle Regiment fans shed any light on when this number may have been issued?

Thanks,

Scott

[MBrockway]

After a false start I managed to track down my Great Uncle's MIC and service record (what's left of it). He served in the Lovat Scouts and this is supported on his MIC and the records. On his MIC however it indicates that at some stage he served in the KRRC. His name was John Todd Clark and his regimental number in this regiment was R/35302.

I note on the LLT site that the R prefix is not unusual.

I have a feeling this may have been towards the end of the war. Can any of the Rifle Regiment fans shed any light on when this number may have been issued?

Thanks,

Scott

Scott,

The "R" prefix in the KRRC Service Number schema was generally used for New Army recruits outwith 16th to 21st battalions inclusive, though the schema was not always followed and there are plenty of anomalies

I've done some digging on nearby KRRC Service Numbers, but this has proved trickier than usual ...

Rfn Phillip Sidney ROBERTSON, with KRRC Service Number R/35305, enlisted on 03 Nov 1915. He was discharged due to sickness on 31 May 1917. He was awarded the Silver War Badge and did serve Overseas. Interestingly he transferred into the KRRC from 2/QOCH.

However a word of caution is needed here - the enlistment date on the SWB Index Card will be that of Robertson's original enlistment into the QOCH, whereas his KRRC R/353xx Service Number would have been allocated to him when he transferred into the KRRC. We cannot therefore interpolate Clark's Enlistment Date from Robertson's SWB data

I'm currently looking in detail in this block of numbers to see if I can at least date Clark's arrival into the KRRC, but that's very difficult to follow through properly so I thought I'd give you this to be going on with! Also this part of the sequence (R/35xxx) seems to contain a lot of men transferred into the KRRC from other regiments - see below.

I also found a Rfn John ALLISON, R/35300, KRRC, formerly 25785, QOCH (and also 475514, 3 Coy, L.C. (=Lines of Communication troops??)), but with no enlistment dates available. The Lovat Scouts did I think end up as LoC troops, so this chap looks like a probable former Lovat Scout to me.

Given that the Lovat Scouts eventually became 10/QOCH, it seems quite a coincidence that three ex-QOCH men should all have KRRC Service Numbers within five places in the R/353xx sequence. I can only speculate, but I wonder if this represents a block of men being transferred on disbandment of a QOCH unit??

It seems unlikely that these three men would all be deemed fit for service in the KRRC after recovering from a wounding on or near the same day.

There's good synergy between the Lovat Scouts and the KRRC - both had a background in acting in a mounted infantry role in South Africa, and both were innovative in their use of sniping/scouting during the Great War (see Andy's extracts from the work of Major F.M. Crum of 8/KRRC in a recent Topic here on the Forum).

I have found another block of KRRC Service Numbers in the range R/358xx and R/359xx for 54 men who all appear to have transferred into the KRRC from the Royal Scots.

Again, speculating wildly, units from the Lovat Scouts, QOCH, and the Royal Scots all served with 3rd and 4th KRRC in 27th Division in Salonika from November 1915 onwards. Does your man Rfn Clark have any service in Salonika by any chance?

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[Waddell]

Thanks Mark.

He did serve in Salonika. His records indicate service there in 1916-18 and then France in 1918-19. His original territorial no. was 2807 (2/1 Lovat Scouts).

Listed on his MIC from top to bottom are-

Camerons S/25780

KRRC R/35302

Camerons S/25780

do 223252

His first number on the MIC sits between Rifleman Phillip Sydney Robertson (3505) and Rifleman John Allison (35300). They weren't Glasgow men by chance?

Regards,

Scott

[MBrockway]

Thanks Mark.

He did serve in Salonika. His records indicate service there in 1916-18 and then France in 1918-19. His original territorial no. was 2807 (2/1 Lovat Scouts).

His first number on the MIC sits between Rifleman Phillip Sydney Robertson (3505) and Rifleman John Allison (35300). They weren't Glasgow men by chance?

Scott,

All three men have QOCH mentioned "earlier" on their MICs, which suggests to me that the KRRC was not their first unit and that they transferred into the KRRC together at which time they were re-numbered.

I don't have the War Diary for either 3/KRRC nor 4/KRRC, but I've gone throught the War Records sections for both battalions in the 1916, 1917 and 1918 KRRC Chronicles hoping to find mention of either a group of QOCH transferring, or (more likely) a group of 54+ Royal Scots. No luck I'm afraid, but such information wold be unusual in the KRRC Chronicle so it was always a longshot!

It might be worth having a look at the 27th Division War Diary - details of transfers between battalions are occasionally detailed at that level.

Sorry but I have no specific info on where the three men were from, though all three surnames are plausibly Scottish. I have Allisons in my own family and we're from Ayrshire, just over the Lanarkshire border.

I suggest you contact Pal Rob Bulloch here on the Forum - he has considerable knowledge on the QOCH and may be able to tell more from the QOCH Service Numbers.

Cheers,

Mark

[SteveE]

Mark

These may be of interest.....http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

Regards

Steve

[Waddell]

Thanks Mark. I'll contact Rob Bulloch and see if he can help.

Thanks Steve. So it looks like twenty two men spent some time with the KRRC.

Scott.

[MBrockway]

Thanks Mark. I'll contact Rob Bulloch and see if he can help.

Thanks Steve. So it looks like twenty two men spent some time with the KRRC.

Scott.

Scott,

Following on from Steve's excellent suggestion, I've been digging into this all morning and in fact have found 34 men that have MICs with mentions of both KRRC and Cameron Highlanders/Lovat's Scouts.

Removing those who appear to have moved between the regiments through trench warfare "business as usual" leaves me with a contiguous block of twenty four Other Ranks with KRRC Service Numbers between R/35292 and R/35319.

There are four gaps in sequence in this block at R/35294, R/35301, R/35306 and R/35316 where I could not find MICs. The missing numbers may well have been used however.

All but two of these men eventually returned to the Cameron Highlanders/Lovat's Scouts. One who did not was Rfn Phillip ROBERTSON (#21 in my List A) who was discharged from the KRRC due to Sickness on 31 May 1917. This means we can be confident that this block of men had already transferred to the KRRC before May 1917, and it could also suggest they did not return to the Camerons until after May 1917 ... though clearly Robertson is likely to have been in hospital for some time before being deemed too sick to ever return to active service and it's doubtful whether a man would be transferred while he was under treatment.

The Camerons Service Numbers listed on the MICs after these men had returned to the Camerons are a mixture of the reused original "S" prefix number and what I take to be new 6-digit TF renumbering numbers. Most of these seem to point to 1st/4th QOCH (who seem to have been broken up in early 1916??) or to the Lovat's Scouts Yeomanry numbers

This could be a profitable line of enquiry to help with our dating for someone with more knowledge of the QOCH numbering systems??

It also seems unusual to me that in a group of 24 men, none were Killed in Action (according to the MICs anyway) and none discharged for Wounds. Furthermore none of these 24 men had entitlement to the 1914-15 Star, so none could have entered a Theatre of War before 1916.

In addition I found an interesting group of five men who enlisted as Other Ranks in the Cameron Highlanders but were then commissioned as Second Lieutenants directly into the KRRC. Four of these five were commissioned on 25/26 September 1917. I can't help feeling this may be linked somehow with the transfer of the Camerons ORs, but clearly these dates do not sit well with the date evidence from Rfn Robertson's Silver War Badge.

I'm going to post all of this into Rob's ongoing QOCH Topic with a request for any information that might reveal why they were treated as a block.

For convenience I'll put the details here as well - see below. Let me know if you have anything on them yourself. There are several with explicit Lovat's Scouts service (Charles EDMUNDS, Murdo FRASER, Duncan IRVINE) as well as possible Lovat's Scouts service implicit in other detail (John ALLISON - Line of Communications troops).

I also found an Edward W MARMAN who served in all three units beginning his active service in the Balkans, but his KRRC number was outwith this block of numbers, so I've not included him.

Some of the KRRC numbers on the MICs were within the sequence range, but did not have the "R" prefix, just the number alone. Since such a run of contiguous numbers seems too unlikely to be a chance coincidence, I have made the assumption that the Army Medal Office has made a mistake and I've corrected them, adding the "R" to all of them since that's what the majority had. The corrected records are identified in the list below so you can make your own minds up.

Cheers,

Mark

List A - 24 ORs with QOCH -> KRRC -> QOCH (incl Lovat's Scouts)

#01

AITKENHEAD, James

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25778,R/35303,S/25778

1st QOCH #: S/25778

KRRC #: R/35303

#02

ALLISON, John

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, 3 Coy Lines of Communication, KRRC

All Service Nos: 25785, R 35300, 475514, R 35300

1st QOCH #: 25785

KRRC #: R/35300

#03

CAMERON, Archibald

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25781, R/35295, S/25781

1st QOCH #: S/25781

KRRC #: R/35295

#04

CARSON, William F

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25779, R/35296, 223193

1st QOCH #: S/25779

2nd QOCH #: 223193

KRRC #: R/35296

#05

CLARK, John Todd

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25780, R/35302, S/25780, 223252

1st QOCH #: S/25780

2nd QOCH #: 223252

KRRC #: R/35302

#06

DARROCH, Angus

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25765, R/35310, 223191

1st QOCH #: S/25765

2nd QOCH #: 223191

KRRC #: R/35310

#07

EDMUNDS, Charles

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Lovat's Scouts

All Service Nos: S/25762, 35318, 126918

1st QOCH #: S/25762

2nd QOCH #: 126918

KRRC # as per MIC: 35318

KRRC # (corrected): R/35318

#08

FRASER, Murdo

Units: 2nd Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, 1st Lovat Scouts (TF)

All Service Nos: S/25767, R/35309, 386530

1st QOCH #: S/25767

2nd QOCH #: 386530

KRRC #: R/35309

#09

FRASER, Robert

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25768, R/35315, S/25768

1st QOCH #: S/25768

KRRC #: R/35315

#10

FREW, Robert

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25786, R/35293, 223190

1st QOCH #: S/25786

2nd QOCH #: 223190

KRRC #: R/35293

#11

GIBSON, Alexander

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25790, R/35299, 223187

1st QOCH #: S/25790

2nd QOCH #: 223187

KRRC #: R/35299

#12

HORROCKS, Harold

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25775, R/35298, 223186

1st QOCH #: S/25775

2nd QOCH #: 223186

KRRC #: R/35298

#13

IRVINE, Duncan C

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Lovat's Scouts

All Service Nos: S/25801, 35292, 126921

1st QOCH #: S/25801

2nd QOCH #: 126921

KRRC #: 35292

#14

MacDONALD, Donald

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25777, R/35297, S/25777

1st QOCH #: S/25777

KRRC #: R/35297

#15

McBRIDE, David

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25771, 35307, S/25771

1st QOCH #: S/25771

KRRC # as per MIC: 35307

KRRC # (corrected): R/35307

#16

McBRIDE, Alexander

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25772, 35313, S/25772

1st QOCH #: S/25772

KRRC # as per MIC: 35313

KRRC # (corrected): R/35313

#17

McINNES, Donald

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25769, R/35308, 223176

1st QOCH #: S/25769

2nd QOCH #: 223176

KRRC #: R/35308

#18

MOLLOY, William

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25761, R/35312, S/25761

1st QOCH #: S/25761

KRRC #: R/35312

#19

PATERSON, Andrew

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25776, R/35304, 223174

1st QOCH #: S/25776

2nd QOCH #: 223174

KRRC #: R/35304

#20

PURDIE, Tom

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25763, R/35311, S/25763

1st QOCH #: S/25763

KRRC #: R/35311

#21

ROBERTSON, Phillip Sidney

Units: 12th Cameron Highlanders, KRRC

Notes: Discharged with SWB 31 May 1917

All Service Nos: S/25771, R35305

1st QOCH #: S/25771

KRRC #: R/35305

#22

ROBERTSON, William

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25756, R/35319, 223196

1st QOCH #: S/25756

2nd QOCH #: 223196

KRRC #: R/35319

#23

TWEEDIE, James B

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25764, R/35317, S/25764

1st QOCH #: S/25764

KRRC #: R/35317

#24

WILSON, William

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Cameron Highlanders

All Service Nos: S/25770, 35314, S/25770

1st QOCH #: S/25770

KRRC # as per MIC: 35314

KRRC # (corrected): R/35314

List B - 5 Camerons ORs commissioned directly into KRRC

Officer #01

CAMPBELL, Angus R

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC att 286th Coy MGC, Indian Army Reserve of Officers

All Service Nos: 1194, 200108

1st QOCH #: 1194

2nd QOCH #: 200108

KRRC #: Commissioned as 2Lt – 25 Sep 1917

Theatre: France - 19 Feb 1915

Officer #02

CLARKE, Stephen

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC

All Service Nos: S/22848

1st QOCH #: S/22848

KRRC #: Commissioned as 2Lt – 26 Sep 1917

Theatre: None

Officer #03

CROSS, Samuel A

Units: 2nd Cameron Highlanders, KRRC

All Service Nos: S/17341

1st QOCH #: S/17341

KRRC #: Commissioned as 2Lt – 25 Sep 1917

Theatre: France - 25 May 1915

Officer #04

MAXWELL, James McLay

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC

All Service Nos: S/10315

1st QOCH #: S/10315

KRRC #: Commissioned as 2Lt – 25 Sep 1917

Theatre: France - 10 May 1915

Officer #05

MIDDLECOTE, Edwin

Units: Cameron Highlanders, KRRC, Royal Air Force

All Service Nos: 3282, S/23929

1st QOCH #: 3282

2nd QOCH #: S/23929

KRRC #: Commissioned as 2Lt – 27 Mar 1917?

Theatre: France - 11 Sep 1915

[Waddell]

Mark,

You have been busy- I feel like I have opened a can of worms. I've got to say that I don't understand why they moved to the KRRC and then were later transferred back as a block. Unless they were required for a particular purpose or action, but usually that would involve secondment not a transfer?

I've posted on Rob Bulloch's QOCH thread with a link to this thread earlier this evening so hopefully he may be able to shed some light on it. I agree the last regimental number on my Great Uncle's and many others looks like a territorial renumbering but cannot confirm.

Scott

[MBrockway]

Mark,

You have been busy- I feel like I have opened a can of worms. I've got to say that I don't understand why they moved to the KRRC and then were later transferred back as a block. Unless they were required for a particular purpose or action, but usually that would involve secondment not a transfer?

I've posted on Rob Bulloch's QOCH thread with a link to this thread earlier this evening so hopefully he may be able to shed some light on it. I agree the last regimental number on my Great Uncle's and many others looks like a territorial renumbering but cannot confirm.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Yes - it's been an interesting morning here!

I have a project under way at the moment testing our accepted KRRC Service Number schema, so this block of men is actually very pertinent to my own wider researches, not just Rfn Clark.

The block of Royal Scots men so close by in the Service Numbers is also intriguing, but I'll have to park that temporarily.

I've replicated most of the above into Rob's ongoing QOCH topic immediately after your post there. With luck the QOCH Pals will cast some light on the matter, and that in turn is likely IMO to illuminate the Royal Scots block as well.

That should also help us identify Rfn Clark's KRRC unit and then I can give you some more detail for your own project.

Cheers,

Mark