West Jesmond School Memorial, Newcastle upon Tyne

[Mike14]

I am currently researching the 54 names recorded on the West Jesmond School Memorial, Newcastle upon Tyne. One of the few names I am having difficulty with is recorded as Alfred A Hall.

Yesterday I found on the Internet a posting to The Great War Forum by Pretsy, on the 9^th April 2008, on the topic of the sinking of HM Submarine D.3. I have copied the posting below.

A.A. Hall was listed on the memorial at West Jesmond School , Newcastle upon Tyne , but I do not know whether he was an ex pupil or a member of staff.

Unfortunately the school has recently been demolished and is to be replaced by a new school, which I assume will redisplay the memorial.

Regards

Dave

I am coming to the conclusion that Alfred A Hall is Alfred Atkinson Hall.

I base my finding on the following

1 - CWGC record of Albert Atkinson Hall – Death 15/3/1918, age 25, HM Submarine D.3., parents Alfred and Catherine Hall of Durham.

2 - Birth of an Albert Atkinson Hall registered in the fourth quarter of 1892 in the Registration District of Durham.

3 - 1901 Census record of Alfred Hall (No initial or second name) age 8, born in Durham, County Durham, living with parents Alfred and Kate (Short for Catherine ??) in Coxlodge, a suburb of Newcastle.

Coxlodge was obviously within the catchment area of the school as two other names commemorated on the memorial lived in near adjacent streets.

I wondered if anyone has further information which would reinforce (Or negate) my findings of Albert A Hall.

With regard to the memorial itself, my brother in law (An ex pupil – circa 1930), with permission, removed the memorial prior to demolition and became temporary custodian. He refurbished the plaque (Brass) and the mount (Oak), presented it to the school on completion of construction works and witnessed its re-erection within the new building.

Regards,

Mike.

[Martin Bennitt]

Hi Mike

welcome to the forum. Fraid I can't help you with AA Hall but I'm glad as a former West Jesmond pupil (1952-56 or thereabouts) that the memorial has been refurbished and reinstalled. I went round the old school on an open day just before it was demolished, which brought back many memories, and remember noticing the roll of honour. I was assured it would be kept

cheers Martin B

[michaeldr]

3 - 1901 Census record of Alfred Hall (No initial or second name) age 8, born in Durham, County Durham, living with parents Alfred and Kate (Short for Catherine ??) in Coxlodge, a suburb of Newcastle.

Coxlodge was obviously within the catchment area of the school as two other names commemorated on the memorial lived in near adjacent streets.

I am not at all sure if this helps

but (as Martin may confirm) In the 1950s & 1960's Coxlodge school belonged to the Northumberland County system, while West Jesmond fell within the area of the County of Newcatle upon Tyne. In my day there was little or no transfer between the two, and this may well have been the system which obtained 50 - odd years earlier. Therefore I doubt the latter statement (Coxlodge was obviously within the catchment area of the school)

Best regards

Michael

ex Coxlodge resident

PS: having travelled from Coxlodge to the swimming baths at West Jesmond in the 1950s, I remember this as a fair old hike

Though memory may be playing tricks on me, I find it hard to believe that children would do this on a daily basis for school

Edited 18 August , 2009 by michaeldr

[Martin Bennitt]

I would agree that the West Jesmond catchment area would not have extended up to Coxlodge, which as Michael says was in Northumberland until the formation of Tyne & Wear metropolitan county (though the journey was quite feasible by rail, with a change at South Gosforth). West Jes came under the Newcastle school board.

And is he Alfred or Albert? The roll of honour says Alfred A. Hall and the CWGC entry says Albert Atkinson, who hailed from Durham. Think more digging is required

cheers Martin B

[Mike14]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your input.

I think that catchment areas in the early 1900's were a little more flexible than they are now. Although the majority of the casualties recorded on the memorial are from Jesmond addresses others are from as far a field as Tynemouth, Forrest Hall, Coxlodge, Gosforth, East and West Newcastle, West Wylam, Gateshead to mention most.

Knowing I have a weakness with my Alfred's and Albert's I have double checked with the following results

Memorial Plaque - Alfred A Hall.

School Roll of Honour - Alfred Hall.

CWGC - Alfred Atkinson Hall.

GRO - Alfred Atkinson Hall - Registered in the District of Durham in 1892.

1901 Census - Alfred Hall, Age 8, Born Durham, County Durham.

Assuming the above refer to the same man, Alfred looks a fair bet.

The reason I placed Alfred in the catchment area was in 1901 he lived in Elsdon Road in the Parish of Coxlodge (I would call that in Gosforth today) which tee's off Salters Road, the latter was the address of Lawrence John Nicholson another name on the memorial.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[Mike14]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your input.

I have just sent Martin a reply re catchment areas. Rather than repeat the detail, catchment areas in the early 1900's appear to be very flexible.

I don't think children of yesterday regarded distance as we do today. I recall my first secondary school in the early 1950's involved a daily bus journey, two train journies (Paid for by the County) and an optional bus journey of approximately 1 mile uphill at the cost of 1 old penny. Needless to say most walked the last leg and pocketed the money - it made for a long day.

Regards,

Mike.

[michaeldr]

The reason I placed Alfred in the catchment area was in 1901 he lived in Elsdon Road in the Parish of Coxlodge (I would call that in Gosforth today) which tee's off Salters Road, the latter was the address of Lawrence John Nicholson another name on the memorial.

Mike,

In 1901 anyone living at Elsdon Road would have been just a 5 minute walk from the school at the corner of Salters Road and the High Street (Great North Road). It opened in the mid-19th.C and did not close untill the 1970s (I think) One of my own grandfathers attended. In my day it was known as the National School, though it also had some connection with the CoE

Nice to walk down memory lane - thanks

and good luck with your research

Michael

[michaeldr]

I think that catchment areas in the early 1900's were a little more flexible than they are now. Although the majority of the casualties recorded on the memorial are from Jesmond addresses others are from as far a field as Tynemouth, Forrest Hall, Coxlodge, Gosforth, East and West Newcastle, West Wylam, Gateshead to mention most.

Mike,

The above list of place names covers a wide area indeed, and, I am open to correction, but, it sounds most unlikely for such a school as this.

I wonder if what you have here is not something which one sometimes finds on the CWGC's Debt of Honour listings: i.e. family details dating not from when the person was at school, but details which are relevant to the time (possibly quite a lot later) when the next-of-kin completed the appropriate forms after the war.

regards

Michael

[Martin Bennitt]

It would certainly be a long hike in from somewhere like West Wylam. I would be interested to know how you are carrying out your research and what documents you can access. Are the old school registers and admissions records still extant? I know the ones from my day are. I know it is a very small sample but the memories recorded in Christine Jeans' privately-published book on the school which she compiled for the 100th anniversary are only from former pupils who lived locally. The catchment area mentioned in a 1921 memoir was 'bounded on the south and east by Jesmond Road, Jesmond Dene Road, and High West Jesmond on the north'.

cheers Martin B

[Mike14]

Michael,

The locations have been taken from the 1901 census. Although there was greater mobility than most imagine in this period, I would anticipate that many were still at their 1901 address at the time of the school opening in 1902.

Be that as it may, information derived from The National Archives informs me that the Boys Admissions Register, Volume 1, for the period 28/7/1902 to 10/1/1921, is held by the Tyne and Wear Archives Service, Newcastle. Will pop in there in the near future to see if the register records home addresses – will let you know the outcome.

Back to the reason for my initial posting – Alfred A Hall - I am becoming more convinced that he is Albert Atkinson Hall of the submarine D3.

I have downloaded the 1911 census and Alfred's parents and sister are now living at 92 Claypath, Durham City, Alfred is not in the household. This is definitely the same family that was living in Elsdon Road, Coxlodge in 1901 as ages, places of birth (3 locations in 3 different counties) and father's occupation all equate.

The only difference is that Alfred's mother is recorded as Kate in 1901 and Catherine in 1911. The latter name is utilised by the CWGC when they record Alfred's parents as 'Alfred and Catherine Hall of Durham'.

Regards, Mike.

[Mike14]

Hello Martin,

The information to date has been extracted from

Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Soldiers died in the Great War 1914 – 1919 by The Naval and Military Press

World War 1 Medal Roll Index Cards

Royal Navy Casualties including RN Division

1901 British Census.

General Register Office Index of Births

See reply to Michael half an hour ago regarding School Admissions Registers.

Probably best to keep an open mind on catchment areas and to illustrate this, unless I have the wrong man, Lawrence John Nicholson, age 7, was living at 43 Salters Road, Gosforth in 1901 and his parents at 10 Woodbine Road, Gosforth at the time of his death in 1917. Both these addresses are well without the boundaries you describe for 1921.

As a matter of interest Lawrence John Nicholson is commemorated by a stained glass window in the south wall of St. Nicholas Church, Church Road, Gosforth.

Regards, Mike.

[Ghost]

Martin,

As has already been asked where does Albert come into it? Is Albert just a typo?

Alfreds wife is from Edinburgh, maybe he was living up there. I don't see any A A Halls on the C1911.

He didn't have a brother JJ HG Hall by any chance did he? HG lived Scaffold hill.

Alan

Edited

[Mike14]

Alan

The man is recorded on the memorial as Alfred A Hall.

First to confess I do have a blind spot and interchange the names Alfred and Albert, even more so during the current Proms season and a surname Hall.

The information I have on Alfred’s marriage is he married Helena Nash (Don’t have her surname as the search only involved the free section of the ‘Scotland’s People’ site). The marriage was in the first quarter of 1918 so Helena was married and widowed within a matter of days.

No JJ Hall recorded with the family in 1901

Regards

Mike.

[Mike14]

I would agree that the West Jesmond catchment area would not have extended up to Coxlodge, which as Michael says was in Northumberland until the formation of Tyne & Wear metropolitan county (though the journey was quite feasible by rail, with a change at South Gosforth). West Jes came under the Newcastle school board.

And is he Alfred or Albert? The roll of honour says Alfred A. Hall and the CWGC entry says Albert Atkinson, who hailed from Durham. Think more digging is required

cheers Martin B

Hi Martin,

Finally got round to viewing West Jesmond Junior School Boys Admission Register held by Tyne & Wear Archives.

The addresses for Gosforth, Coxlodge and Forrest Hall are correct.

The only one I had incorrect was the man from West Wylam - recorded on the Plaque as Wm. MacaulEy, turned out to be William Birrell MacaulAy. Goes to show how a mis-spelt name can lead one astray.

Cheers Mike.

[Martin Bennitt]

thanks Mike. I'm surprised but guess people had to travel further to school in those days.

It's Forest Hall, by the way, not Forrest. Good luck with your further researches and keep in touch on progress

cheers Martin B

[Mike14]

thanks Mike. I'm surprised but guess people had to travel further to school in those days.

It's Forest Hall, by the way, not Forrest. Good luck with your further researches and keep in touch on progress

cheers Martin B

Hi Martin,

Freudian slip - Two of the names I am researching are Alex. Forrest and Ernest Forrest (Brothers).

As a matter of interest the Plaque is to be rededicated in the new school building on 9th November.

Cheers, Mike.

[Martin Bennitt]

As a matter of interest the Plaque is to be rededicated in the new school building on 9th November.

thanks for the news. I guess there'll be something on the school website when it happens

cheers Martin B

[Mike14]

thanks for the news. I guess there'll be something on the school website when it happens

cheers Martin B

This morning I attended a combined Service of Remembrance and Rededication of the Memorial Plaque to the W.W.1 fallen pupils and staff.

After an introduction by the head teacher, a local vicar gave a short service to the assembled school, visitors and guests and emphasized the importance of remembering. He drew the parallel between the pupils assembled today in a new hall and those who had assembled in the new hall in 1902, many whom are commemorated on the Plaque.

Due to the restricted space, a selected group of children, staff, standard bearers representing the Royal British Legion and Royal Artillery, together with guests gathered round the memorial.

There followed a reading by a pupil of an extract from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission's description of the adjacent cemetery, in which is buried, amongst others, one of the commemorated pupils. A rendition of John McCrae's "In Flanders Fields" was given by a second pupil.

The Re-Dedication ceremony, which included prayers and blessing the Plaque with Holy Water, was followed by the Exhortation, Silence with dipped standards, and Kohima.

The penultimate act was the placing of poppy wreaths, one by a World War 2 Veteran on behalf of the Royal British Legion, and one by two pupils on behalf of the staff and pupils of the school.

The final act was a quiet speech by the veteran reminding all assembled at the Plaque that there was no glory in war.

Mike

[Martin Bennitt]

thanks very much for that account

cheers Martin B

[michaeldr]

Mike,

Many thanks for the account of the service; glad all went off well

Re your: As a matter of interest Lawrence John Nicholson is commemorated by a stained glass window in the south wall of St. Nicholas Church, Church Road, Gosforth

Which window is this? I well remember the eastern most one (that nearest to the organ and chancel) but I am a bit hazy on the others in the south aisle

(Perhaps I should add that the window I remember depicted the Angel outside the empty tomb)

regards

Michael

Edited 9 November , 2009 by michaeldr

[Mike14]

Mike,

Many thanks for the account of the service; glad all went off well

Re your: As a matter of interest Lawrence John Nicholson is commemorated by a stained glass window in the south wall of St. Nicholas Church, Church Road, Gosforth

Which window is this? I well remember the eastern most one (that nearest to the organ and chancel) but I am a bit hazy on the others in the south aisle

(Perhaps I should add that the window I remember depicted the Angel outside the empty tomb)

regards

Michael

Michael,

Your memory serves you well, the stained glass window depicting an angel outside Christ's empty tomb is that dedicated to Lawrence John Nicholson.

As a matter of further interest the adjacent window depicting the Good Samaritan kneeling by the side of a man, is dedicated to William Barnett Row, another of the names commemorated on the West Jesmond School Plaque.

Mike.

[michaeldr]

Your memory serves you well,

Thanks Mike

I've spent a lot of time looking at that window

[four times a week for 16 years spent in the choir, boy and man]

but it's a long time ago now

best regards

Michael