The conundrum that is...

[Skipman]

<a href="http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=735119" target="_blank">http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=735119</a>

The conundrum, that is Pte 203208 William McIntosh, 2nd Essex KIA 21//1918

<img src="http://i30.tinypic.com/fuob8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

William ran away to join up, three times. His mother fetched him back twice, but it seems on the 3d attempt, he succeeded. (Family story ) Enlisting as Pte 1527 1/6th Bn Black Watch, at Aberfeldy.

A relative has a bracelet with his Black Watch number 1527 on it, " Salvage Corps "

He was KIA on the 21st April 1918, while serving with the 2nd Bn Essex Regiment, and his name appears on the Loos Memorial.

I presume he was wounded while serving with the Black Watch, and later served with the 2nd Essex.

Apparently his Essex number is a 4th Bn number.

<img src="http://i25.tinypic.com/xq9rmu.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

This is William McIntosh, complete with South Staffs cap badge.( Relative certain it is him )

Can anyone help put the peices of the puzzle together?

Could he have; <i>Joined the Black Watch. Served with a Salvage corps unit? Been wounded at some point. While recovering, was temporarily with South Staffs, but didn't go to France with that unit. Then he was re-numbered, transferred to the 4th Bn Essex Reg. He went with a draft, to the 2nd Bn, and was killed in action?</i>

<b>Relative thinks he may have been found out as being too young at some point?</b> Born August 1898

Cheers Mike

[Northern Soul]

Photo of the South Staffs soldier may be a red herring - if there is only a relative's word for it and no other corroboration then I'd be inclined to be sceptical, because there is no mention of the South Staffs on his MIC - and it would be listed if he had served with them after having gone abroad.

Your supposition seems very plausible. However, slighly more likely is that he was wounded and invalided to the UK. Then, on returning to France, he would have gone through one of the Infantry Base Depots e.g. at Rouen, Boulogne or Etaples. Here he would have been reassigned to the Essex Regiment (whether he liked it or not - they obviously needed a draft of men and it was first come, first served !)

As a Territorial soldier he had to be initally transferred to the strenghth of a TF battalion in the receiving corps and so was reumbered into the 4/Essex, although it is likely that this was just an adminstrative exercise, and he never physically joined the 4/Essex. Since there is no 4-figure Essex Regt TF No. quoted on his MIC then this transfer probably occurred after February, 1917. Paul Nixon or an Essex TF specialist of this Forum may be able to indicate when 203208 was allocated, although it looks quite high, so that would place it late. You'd need to consult the Essex Regt. Medal Rolls but you'll probably find that he went into the 2nd Battalion.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[Sue S]

Hi Mike, I would tend to agree with Andy regarding the South Staffs connection. Perhaps the man in the photograph was a relative of William's and bears a family resemblance. If William had brothers it would be worth looking at their MIC's to see whether any of them served with the Staffords. You could also try searching the local newspapers at around the time of William's death which might shed some light on the matter. There may also be a photo of him which you could help with your conundrum. Good luck with your research. Sue S.

[ATNOMIS]

Mike

Info you might already have.

Hope this might help Pals looking into your man

Cheers

Atnomis

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919

about William McIntosh

Name: William McIntosh

Birth Place: Dull, Perth

Residence: Aberfeldy, Perth

Death Date: 21 Apr 1918

Enlistment Location: Aberfeldy

Rank: L/Corporal

Regiment: Essex Regiment

Battalion: 2nd Battalion.

Number: 203208

Type of Casualty: Killed in action

Comments: Formerly 1527, Royal Highlanders.

[ATNOMIS]

Is this your man?

1901 Scotland Census

about William McIntosh

Name: William McIntosh

Age: 2

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899

Relationship: Son

Father's Name: William

Mother's Name: Elizabeth

Gender: Male

Where born: Kenmore, Perthshire

Registration Number: 360

Registration district: Kenmore

Civil parish: Kenmore

County: Perthshire

Address: Bigrow

ED: 1

Household schedule number: 122

Line: 21

Roll: CSSCT1901_120

Household Members: Name Age

William McIntosh 32

Elizabeth McIntosh 29

Mary McIntosh 10

Elizabeth McIntosh 8

Annaie McIntosh 4

William McIntosh 2

Maggie McIntosh 3mo

[Guest]

Atnomis, that's the one. Thank you.

Thanks Sue, good thinking, will have a gander.

Andy. Thanks for that too. I think your summary is very good, and likely. I will speak to relative again, she is adamant, that it is him.

I had a look at MIC's with Essex numbers close to 203208. There does seem to be quite a few who were at one time in the South Staff, then Essex, or the other way round. I wondered if that was significant at all? I will check them again.

Many thanks everyone, much appreciated. The hunt goes on.

Cheers Mike

[high wood]

The photograph seems to have been taken at a photographer's studio in Louth in Lincolnshire. Louth is about 30 miles North East of Lincoln where the 3/5th and 3/6th battalions of the South Staffordshire Regiment were based from March 1917. Later they were at Maplethorpe and Sutton-on-Sea which I believe are nearer louth.

[Guest]

Thanks High Wood. Both home based units.

Had a look at numbers close to 203208

Harold Tart 2590 South Staffs-203212 Essex

George Lilley 2063 South Staffs-203210 Essex-240205 South Staffs SWB

Also this man

Percy Clarence Ratcliffe 203207 4th Essex His ' Pension ' record survives.

His pension record clearly states he saw home service only . This fact appears to be confirmed by the absence from British War Medal & Victory Medal rolls. Yet his casualty form says he was transferred to the Essex Regiment on 5th December 1918, by which time, William McIntosh ( 203208 ) had been dead for seven and a half months?

Does any of this help solve anything, or does it just confuse the issue even more?

Thanks to shinglma, for all his help.

[Guest]

Just an update on the conundrum. I have seen, and will get a photograph of a bracelet with Salvage Corps written on it, that belonged to William McIntosh. Also these newspaper clips from The People's Journal, that seem back up the relatives story, of the South Staffs soldier, being the right man.

[Ed Woods]

The 2nd Essex were involved in fighting in and around the village of Riez du Vinage on the 21st but no deaths in the diary for this date.

[Ed Woods]

The 2nd Essex were involved in fighting in and around the village of Riez du Vinage on the 21st but no deaths in the diary for this date.

Just read the unit diary forward - on the 25th the unit diary states that the casualties from the 16th to 24th April - 43 other ranks killed 115 wounded 36 other ranks missing. 42 other ranks to FA? 2 other ranks died of wounds.

Looks like they attacked a village and found it full of Germans - I will type out the unit diaries for this period of time later today for you.

[Ed Woods]

Just read the unit diary forward - on the 25th the unit diary states that the casualties from the 16th to 24th April - 43 other ranks killed 115 wounded 36 other ranks missing. 42 other ranks to FA? 2 other ranks died of wounds.

Looks like they attacked a village and found it full of Germans - I will type out the unit diaries for this period of time later today for you.

There is already a thread on this battle - post 7 onwards describes the hand to hand fighting

http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=52206

And this link has a transcription of the whole war diary for the 2nd Essex for April

http://www.chingfordwarmemorial.co.uk/bookofhonour.php?detail=HAMBLY,_S,_V

238 casualties in 8 days fighting.

[Guest]

Thanks for that Ed. Appreciate it.

Cheers Mike