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Remembered Today:

Who are these Men?


G.Driver 10thLF

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hi i found this picture in the local history centre (Rochdale) and am curious as to who they are

the picture says "Territorials on their way to Turten"

Cap badges look like lancs Fus to me

what you guys think?

- Graham

Picture copyright of Touchstones, Rochdale MBC

terries.th.jpg

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Those bandoliers on infantry do sort of say pre war, possibly even pre 1908.

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Judging by the size and shape of the cap badge, I'd say the chaps were Glousters.

Seph

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Not the most useful contribution but the subaltern between the two companies seems to be out of step; perhaps his sword is getting in the way.

Ian

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PBI = foot transport. Could be on Brigade or Divisional manouvers. But the cap badge is deffo not the 'LF's... its to large for that. Last post was only an assessement... size, shape. What other regts are from the area concerned = Yeomanry, Terri's and Regs?

Ian.. he's only a Loey, so he's allowed to look a Prat! :D

Seph

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Not the most useful contribution but the subaltern between the two companies seems to be out of step; perhaps his sword is getting in the way.

Ian

Indeed a number of men are out of step, some have their rifles slung and at least one man is holding the muzzle with the butt over his shoulder. Proceeding rather than marching! Not, I think, a regular battalion nor yeomanry unless that've had a problem finding horses! - Terriers would seem right and even then they look sloppy - possibly at the fag end of a long march?

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I had noticed the generally sloppy march discipline and at first thought that one company was carrying rifles at the slope and the other with rifles slung but clearly it's not as organised as that.

I can't find a trace of Turten but there is a Turton Moor click (with an interestingly named 'Cartridge Hill') about 20 kilometres west of Rochdale and Turton Bottom about 15 km west (very rough estimates). They seem nearer to Bolton (Bolton Artillery on the march but would they own enough rifles, even the Long Lee Enfield?). I can virtually see this lot (the hills, not the men) from the end of the road.

Blackburn, Darwen ... must be East Lancashire country, an assertion which will doubtless have be brought down in flames but Lancashire Fusilers are further afield I thought.

Ian

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Hi there Ian,

It looks like the serjeant furthest right is carrying a bugle,infantry type, not mounted type.

Cheers Roger.

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And the Bury volunteers were the volunteer battalion(s) of the LF. I've seen two variants on the cap badge pre WW1 one being the simple grenade with the Sphinx and the other being a grenade with a scroll around either side and I think the latter was worn by the volunteers. This might explain the size issue.

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Indeed a number of men are out of step, some have their rifles slung and at least one man is holding the muzzle with the butt over his shoulder. Proceeding rather than marching!

I had noticed the generally sloppy march discipline and at first thought that one company was carrying rifles at the slope and the other with rifles slung but clearly it's not as organised as that.

Do not confuse the concept of march discipline with the discipline and uniformity instilled and practiced in close order drill. March discipline is concerned with rates of movement, distances occupied by troops on the route, spacing of bodies of troops, and timing againt issued march tables (when issued). Close order drill is that used on the parade square and for marching around barracks.

Troops did not always route march in accordance with the manual of drill. Route marching would have been a more relaxed activity with an emphasis of getting from starting point to destination on the timings and routes as issued to the unit. Drill "by the book" had its place on the parade ground and in front of the reviewing officer on the march, marching on manoeuvres, or to and from the lines, was not necessarily the time or place for parade drill.

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Regimentalrogue,

Do not confuse the concept of march discipline with the discipline and uniformity instilled and practiced in close order drill. March discipline is concerned with rates of movement, distances occupied by troops on the route, spacing of bodies of troops, and timing against issued march tables (when issued). Close order drill is that used on the parade square and for marching around barracks.

Troops did not always route march in accordance with the manual of drill. Route marching would have been a more relaxed activity with an emphasis of getting from starting point to destination on the timings and routes as issued to the unit. Drill "by the book" had its place on the parade ground and in front of the reviewing officer on the march, marching on manoeuvres, or to and from the lines, was not necessarily the time or place for parade drill.

I can assure you that I am not confusing the concept of march discipline with close order drill. I recognise that march discipline is concerned with 'rates of movement ... etc' on a logistic level and I have considered enough movement tables both modern and of WW1 to know. I also appreciate that since the mechanisation of the infantry (and probably since the advent of air power meant that no movement on foot on active service took place in close order) timings, pass times and the rest are the be all and end all of march discipline.

However, if I look look at the WW1 context in the Notes for Commanding Officers issued for the Senior Officers School at Aldershot in 1917, to which officers serving in the BEF were sent if they were in line for command of a battalion, there is a wider interpretation. JFC Fuller's lecture on 'Marching and March Discipline' clearly includes under the heading 'March Disipline' the need to march 'at attention' (when appropriate) or 'at ease', the maintenance of covering and distances at all times with a need not to open out. Fuller manages twelve printed pages on 'March Discipline and a 'Demonstration of March Discipline' with hardly a mention of the logistic movement features mentioned above. He also recognises that men may be marching with a button or two undone and with slackened slings.

If they are not in step, they are not marching (unless they are crossing a bridge) and I would hold that that is a fundamental of march discipline; the rythmn maintains the pace. I would be interested, genuinely, to know if it was the practice to 'march' in broken step but not to be confused with what Smith-Dorrien saw as his Corps withdrew from Le Catreau. 'I likened it at the time to a crowd coming away from a race meeting, and I see the same simile in the Official History. It was a wonderful sight—men smoking their pipes, apparently quite unconcerned, and walking steadily down the road—no formation of any sort, and men of all units mixed together.'

I should add that Fuller is clearly not being a martinet; everything he writes, as should befit a Light Infantry officer, is designed to ensure the maximum of comfort and least messing about for the soldier to ensure that he completes his march in the best possible condition physically and mentally.

Infantry Training 1914 under 'Elementary training in march discipline' also specifically mentions marching at regular intervals.

I am sure that there is a long way between principle and practice and I can remember my father of WW2 service talking of 'marching at attention', 'marching at ease' and 'marching easy' (which seemed to involve smoking a ciggy). I have never found the last category in the drill book (I haven't looked for it) but doubtless it exists in reality.

As far as I can see, considerable store was set on the way troops marched in WW1 and not just whether they could get to the right place at the right time occupying the correct length of road and staying out of the way of troops of cavalry, wagons, staff cars and whatever else. Troops were frequently inspected by their GOC 'on the march' and this was clearly used as way of assessing morale and the state of a battalion's training. Admittedly, part of that assessment would be whether or not the battalion had managed to get itself into the right place at the right time.

To summarise, my point is that there is no confusion with close order drill here but that at the time of WW1 the way in which men marched within their own formed bodies was as much a part of 'march disipline' as complying with the timetable and for the company officer, probably a lot more important. I don't think that I suggested (or implied) that men would march along a road as they might march on the square.

Ian

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And the Bury volunteers were the volunteer battalion(s) of the LF. I've seen two variants on the cap badge pre WW1 one being the simple grenade with the Sphinx and the other being a grenade with a scroll around either side and I think the latter was worn by the volunteers. This might explain the size issue.

Agreed. It shape certainly looks more like the Lancashire Fusiliers 'scroll' version than an East Lancashire badge. However, Blackburn and Darwen is East Lancashire territory. I hadn't realised that the Lancashire Fusiliers ran their regimental district up to Todmorden where two of the eight companies of the 6th Battalion were based. Who moved it into West Yorkshire? Can Todmordonians (?) play cricket for Yorkshire? Sorry, it's late ...

Also, I notice that at the beginning of WW1 (courtesy of Brigadier James), the Bury (5th Bn) and Rochdale (6th Bn) Lancashire Fusiliers were both at Brigade camp in Turton in August 1914 so it is clearly a location that volunteer and Territorial Force battalions of the XXth might go to.

Ian

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Regimentalrogue,

I can assure you that I am not confusing the concept of march discipline with close order drill. I recognise that march discipline is concerned with 'rates of movement ... etc' on a logistic level and I have considered enough movement tables both modern and of WW1 to know. I also appreciate that since the mechanisation of the infantry (and probably since the advent of air power meant that no movement on foot on active service took place in close order) timings, pass times and the rest are the be all and end all of march discipline.

However, if I look look at the WW1 context in the Notes for Commanding Officers issued for the Senior Officers School at Aldershot in 1917, to which officers serving in the BEF were sent if they were in line for command of a battalion, there is a wider interpretation. JFC Fuller's lecture on 'Marching and March Discipline' clearly includes under the heading 'March Disipline' the need to march 'at attention' (when appropriate) or 'at ease', the maintenance of covering and distances at all times with a need not to open out. Fuller manages twelve printed pages on 'March Discipline and a 'Demonstration of March Discipline' with hardly a mention of the logistic movement features mentioned above. He also recognises that men may be marching with a button or two undone and with slackened slings.

If they are not in step, they are not marching (unless they are crossing a bridge) and I would hold that that is a fundamental of march discipline; the rythmn maintains the pace. I would be interested, genuinely, to know if it was the practice to 'march' in broken step but not to be confused with what Smith-Dorrien saw as his Corps withdrew from Le Catreau. 'I likened it at the time to a crowd coming away from a race meeting, and I see the same simile in the Official History. It was a wonderful sight—men smoking their pipes, apparently quite unconcerned, and walking steadily down the road—no formation of any sort, and men of all units mixed together.'

I should add that Fuller is clearly not being a martinet; everything he writes, as should befit a Light Infantry officer, is designed to ensure the maximum of comfort and least messing about for the soldier to ensure that he completes his march in the best possible condition physically and mentally.

Infantry Training 1914 under 'Elementary training in march discipline' also specifically mentions marching at regular intervals.

I am sure that there is a long way between principle and practice and I can remember my father of WW2 service talking of 'marching at attention', 'marching at ease' and 'marching easy' (which seemed to involve smoking a ciggy). I have never found the last category in the drill book (I haven't looked for it) but doubtless it exists in reality.

As far as I can see, considerable store was set on the way troops marched in WW1 and not just whether they could get to the right place at the right time occupying the correct length of road and staying out of the way of troops of cavalry, wagons, staff cars and whatever else. Troops were frequently inspected by their GOC 'on the march' and this was clearly used as way of assessing morale and the state of a battalion's training. Admittedly, part of that assessment would be whether or not the battalion had managed to get itself into the right place at the right time.

To summarise, my point is that there is no confusion with close order drill here but that at the time of WW1 the way in which men marched within their own formed bodies was as much a part of 'march disipline' as complying with the timetable and for the company officer, probably a lot more important. I don't think that I suggested (or implied) that men would march along a road as they might march on the square.

Ian

Crikey, that's a answer and a half!

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My apologies Ian, I obviously mistook your comment on "sloppy march discipline" to have its simple meaning based on the words chosen. Thank you very much for your detailed staff answer.

I was not seeking an argument, just hoping to add clarification after repeated comments which appeared to criticize the manner in which the troops appeared to be marching to those who may or may not have personal military experience with variances between published regulations in training documents and practical application.

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My apologies Ian, I obviously mistook your comment on "sloppy march discipline" to have its simple meaning based on the words chosen. Thank you very much for your detailed staff answer.

I was not seeking an argument, just hoping to add clarification after repeated comments which appeared to criticize the manner in which the troops appeared to be marching to those who may or may not have personal military experience with variances between published regulations in training documents and practical application.

Regimentalrogue,

No problem at all. I really should not do posts at midnight after coming back from supper though I only had one glass of wine at the local Italiano! I originally posted just before going out and I really should have been a bit more specific about 'march discipline', slightly sloppy posting on my part but now we have Major-General (then Major) JFC Fuller on the record (written before he won the entire war for us with the tank - that's tongue in cheek before I have a host of Forum Members putting me right or agreeing with that statement).

I would be interested to know where the detail for movement planning exists for WW1; there must have been a handbook or was it just done with duplicated notes. Field Service Regulation Vol 2 is very vague, full of principle but absolutely no detail. The Active Service Pocket Book is a mine of information but is essentially a private publication. It is fine for knowing how long a column is formed by a field ambulance or how many trains are needed to transport a divisional ammunition column (with loading times) and even gives some clues to pass times (200 marching men in fours per minute) but I feel it all must have been based on something official. Is there a WO 1234 or an SS 999 out there titled Tables and Templates for March Planning?

Oops ... I am well off topic. I might repost this somewhere else at the weekend!

Who were these men? How common was the wearing of bandoliers by the infantry and other unmounted personnel? I have just spoken to a friend who is a volunteer expert and he seems to think that this was uncommon in infantry battalions apart from the transport section

Ian

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Who were these men? How common was the wearing of bandoliers by the infantry and other unmounted personnel? I have just spoken to a friend who is a volunteer expert and he seems to think that this was uncommon in infantry battalions apart from the transport section

See one of my earlier posts on this thread - I think this date the picture to pre 1908.. However volunteer units might have had to hold onto the old kit for longer than the regulars.

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I would be interested to know where the detail for movement planning exists for WW1; there must have been a handbook or was it just done with duplicated notes. Field Service Regulation Vol 2 is very vague, full of principle but absolutely no detail. The Active Service Pocket Book is a mine of information but is essentially a private publication. It is fine for knowing how long a column is formed by a field ambulance or how many trains are needed to transport a divisional ammunition column (with loading times) and even gives some clues to pass times (200 marching men in fours per minute) but I feel it all must have been based on something official. Is there a WO 1234 or an SS 999 out there titled Tables and Templates for March Planning?

Field Service Regulations, Part 1; Operations (1909, reprinted with amendments 1912) provides guidance on Marches. Sections include:

General Rules

March formation and distances

Pace

Order of March

Trains and Supply Columns

Divisional Ammunition Columns

Stating Point

Halts

Military bridges, fords, drifts, etc.

Rules for horse and pack transport on the march

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Regimentalrogue,

How stupid of me. It's two feet to my left at the keyboard, under the Active Service Pocket Book! I only thought to look in FSR2 (Admin and Org) on the basis that I thought it was a loggy matter. I have even leafed through the section you have pointed out before now without realising that there was some detail within. Thanks

Ian

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