Hohenzollern Redoubt

[jainvince]

I have been researching a local soldier who served with the 2nd Dragoon Guards and died on 10th February 1916. He was buried in Quarry Cemetery, Vermelles. According to CWGC website, "Quarry Cemetery was used from July 1915 to June 1916, and (for two burials) in August 1917. Its existence is due chiefly to the fighting at Fosse 8 and at the Hohenzollern Redoubt, and it contains many graves of the dismounted Cavalry who occupied this sector in 1915-16".

The enclosed conmbined map/aerial shows the location of these places. However, does anybody have any recent pictures of the Redoubt site and associated craters. Is the site still being protected from tipping etc? Any info would be appreciated.

BernardP

[stripeyman]

Paul

Do you remember the fellow that lived on the edge of one of the HZ craters amongst the trees?

I came accross him unexpectantly when I was investigating in 1982, he was an old chap who

looked like a tramp and had a shanty abode complete with camp fire.

Bob

[high wood]

I have always felt that the Hohenzollern Redoubt should have been purchased and preserved as a memorial rather in the way that the Lochnagar crater or the Butte de Warlencourt were. It would have made a fitting memorial to the men who were killed at the battle of Loos.

[Michelle Young]

I can get you photos in September if that is any good?

Michelle

[Paul Reed]

Paul

Do you remember the fellow that lived on the edge of one of the HZ craters amongst the trees?

I came accross him unexpectantly when I was investigating in 1982, he was an old chap who

looked like a tramp and had a shanty abode complete with camp fire.

Bob

No, didn't know him, Bob.

Michelle Young (above) introduced me to a chap who lived in the cottages close by and had an amazing collection of cap badges he had found by walking the fields there.

[Michelle Young]

I haven't seen Henri for some time now, but as Paul says he had an impressive collection of stuff he had picked up.

Michelle

[Cliff. Hobson]

Visited the site of the Hohenzollern Redoubt in the company of Paul Reed in 2005, my Father was there with the 8th Battalion Sherwood Foresters in October 1915 below an extract from their history

Although we had gained 100 yards or so of the WEST FACE our right flank was not in touch with the 6th battalion, urged on by the shouts of the LINCOLNS & LIECESTER’S the left half of “A” Company ran through the WEST FACE and began pushing on. The enemy, however were waking up and our men were met with much heavier fire which caused a number of casualties, it was seen that further advance was out of the question. The only thing to be done was to consolidate and try to extend our gains by bombing along WEST FACE, shortage of grenades soon made it clear we must stop and build a barricade to hold up the Germans who seemed to have a never ending supply of grenades.

On the extreme right D Company came across some Boche out of the trenches preparing to counter attack most of these were slaughtered, the remainder ran back to their trenches.

The enemy were no more than 50 yards away and the least exposure brought a bullet, though in this respect they did not have it their own way. October the 14th seemed a never ending day for those in the REDOUBT, bombing went on uninterruptedly and our casualties mounted rapidly. Grenadier reinforcements (Bombers) were sent from every Company in the Battalion also from the 5th Battalion, from one flank or the other, the cry was for more bombs or more Bombers.

Meanwhile Colonel Fowler, (Commanding Officer of the Battalion, (later killed) made arrangements for the defence of the trench on the left from which much to their relief the LINCOLNS /LIECESTER’S had been withdrawn during the early hours.

October the 14th seemed a never ending day for those in the REDOUBT fortunately in a way, the lines were too close together to be shelled but bombing went on almost interruptedly and our casualties mounted rapidly. Our relief promised for the night of the 14th never came and we were compelled to remain in the REDOUBT, every one was tired out having had little or no sleep and very little food for 48 hours. At about 6.30 a.m. on the morning of the 15th we were relieved in WEST FACE by portions of the 5th.and 6th., Battalions and Grenadiers (Bombers) of the Irish Guards and withdrawn to RAILWAY RESERVE Trench. On relief we marched out to the Transport lines where in the early hours of the 16th we got some most welcome and refreshing tea and then moved on, most of us more asleep than awake to VAUDRICOURT. Thus ended the more or less fruitless battle of the HOHENZOLLERN REDOUBT, though we held a portion of the Redoubt it was of no tactical value, and indeed later on was evacuated and blown up. The 12th Division fared no better and we can only look back on the whole attack through no fault of our own as a dismal failure. The Battle caused enormous casualties all to no purpose, our Battalion alone lost 7 Officers and 35 other ranks killed, three Officers and 132 Other Ranks wounded and 14 missing later found to have been killed.

The total casualties suffered by the 46th North Midlands Division in the attack on the Hohenzollern Redoubt at Loos on the 12/13 October 1915 amounted to 3294, the four Battalions of the Staffordshire Regiment (137 Brigade) who carried out the initial assault suffered 1546 casualties. 138 Brigade-Monmouthshire Battalion 160, 4th Leicestershire Battalion 473, 5th Leicestershire 187, the 4 Support Battalions, 5th Lincolns 296. 4th Lincolns 187.

(139 Sherwood Forester Brigade Casualties) 5th Sherwood Foresters 49, 6th Sherwoods 60, 7th Sherwoods 151, 8th Sherwoods 185.

[jainvince]

I can get you photos in September if that is any good?

Michelle

Michelle

That would be excellent as they will help us plan our trip next year.

Bernard P

[jainvince]

Cliff

Thanks for that. Although I have not studied the area too much, the history has already seeped into my reading and it is certain I need to know more thus my initial post prior to a detailed visit next year.

Bernard

[Len Trim]

Hi,

was there three weeks ago. Used Linesman to ensure correct locations. Hohenzollern Redoubt very overgrown with nettles, brambles etc. but still a very dominating position when standing there looking over the battlefield ie. towards what is now Quarry Cemetry or over towards the crassiers. Will link to some Photobucket shots tomorrow if I get a chance. Farmer's track was impossible for car. Walked round on foot through fields and also through village past memorial 46th ?

Len

[Steve Bramley]

The total casualties suffered by the 46th North Midlands Division in the attack on the Hohenzollern Redoubt at Loos on the 12/13 October 1915 amounted to 3294, the four Battalions of the Staffordshire Regiment (137 Brigade) who carried out the initial assault suffered 1546 casualties. 138 Brigade-Monmouthshire Battalion 160, 4th Leicestershire Battalion 473, 5th Leicestershire 187, the 4 Support Battalions, 5th Lincolns 296. 4th Lincolns 187.

(139 Sherwood Forester Brigade Casualties) 5th Sherwood Foresters 49, 6th Sherwoods 60, 7th Sherwoods 151, 8th Sherwoods 185.

Hi Cliff,

There is a new memorial to the 46th Division at the site of the October 13/14th attack erected with the help of the Lincoln Co-Op. Several visit every year on the 13th. We would be honoured to see you there sometime?

The 1/5th Lincolns and 1/4th Leicesters led the attack on the left flank at 2 p.m. after an hours gas and smoke attack, with their first objective Fosse trench . The Staffs attacked on the right flank at 2.05 p.m. with the dump as their initial objective.

The Foresters were in reserve for this action but were called upon in the late afternoon/evening as the initial assault faltered. After overunning the Redoubt the Lincolns and Leicesters were cut down by machine guns operating from Mad Point, Fosse Trench and the Dump, few (if any) made it to the first objective. In both of these battalions only two officers returned unscathed.

Total casualties: 3763.

Staffs Brigade:

K/DOW Wnd/POW Total

5th North 232 273 505

6th North 98 217 315

5th South 103 216 319

6th South 122 265 407

Lincs/Leices

4th Leices 211 262 473

5th Leices 42 145 187

4th Lincs 169 228 397

5th Lincs 188 295 483

Foresters

5th N&D 8 41 49

6th N&D 12 48 60

7th N&D 44 107 151

8th N&D 48 122 170

Pioneers

1st Monmouths 31 129 160

93% of those killed have no known grave and are remembered on the Loos Memorial to the missing,

Regards,

Steve.

[Len Trim]

Some photos as promised.

Dump and Hohenzollern Redoubt from farm track

[Len Trim]

Hohenzollern Redoubt to Quarry Cemetery

[Jon6640]

Steve,

Do you have any stats for the RE's on the 13th?

Jon

[jainvince]

Thanks Len for you clear photographs.

Bernard

[chrisharley9]

Some photos here:

http://www.battlefields1418.com/hohenzollern.htm

Paul

the main picture - thats more or less where the lady found the watch

Chris

[evolution]

Remembering 1st-2nd-6th-9th Welch who took part in the battle.

It was the 2nd that got in behind Ritters men at Lone tree, and forced Capt Ritters men to surrender to Greens force. The Official History 1915 say's

The leading of the 2nd Welch after it had broken through and arrived in the rear of the enemy trenchs near Lone Tree, which resulted in the surrender of Ritters force and enabled the 2nd brigade to advance, was an exhibition of initiative only to rare on the 25th September.

The 9th also attacked on the 25th Sept part of 9th Div, It was there first battle and turned into a tragedy.

The 1st and 6th came into the line opposite the Hohenzollern Redoubt on the 28th, the 6th would lose there Co L/Col Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart (The old Cardiff City football Ground was named after him), he died in the long sap the 6th were trying to connect to Little Willie to save the survivors of the 1st who were trapped there. The 1st had made a night attack and had got into the German trench. On the 1st October, at 8pm the 1st Welch crept over the parapit, so silently was the advance carried out that they were within 100 yards of the enemy before they were discovered, machine guns opened up on them from both flanks, and the whole line to there front opened rapid fire! "Forward 41st, Get at Em Welch" the CO shouted, within 20 seconds 250 men with a high proportion of officers amongst them were on the floor, the rest with fixed bayonets were in amongst the Prussian Guards, who quickly retreated! The left of the attack had drawn in too far, so they were unable to prolong the line to cover the long sap the 6th were digging to connect the British front line to the redoubt, in effect they were gut completly off, and it turned into a bombing affair as they were attacked from both flanks and down a communication trench. The only thing to do was connect the trench to the sap that the 6th was digging in no maans land, both Battns set to work on this, the Germans quickly realised this and continualy bombed it, and set a sniper covering the area, it was he who killed the 6th's Co. Lying prone in the shallow trench and digging 1 man at a time, 14 men in quick succession were shot each 1 to the head, but there was no need for volenteers, each man in his turn taking the place of his dead comrade. Movement in day time was immpossable, and at 10:00 the Germans brought up a minenwerfer, and started mortering the 1st, so croded was the trench by now, as they were squezed by attacks on both flanks that each explosion caused great casualties. By 14:30 the 2 trench's were conected and the remnent of the 1st were pulled from little willie, the 1st now held the frontline, the 6th the communication trench with a block in place, they were both pulled out of the frontline on the 3rd.

[Steve Bramley]

Hi Jon,

Divisional Artliiery, Engineers and other troops, 87. I will have to check my source for the exact figure for the R.E.

Regards,

Steve.

[Guest Gossart Henri]

Hi!

My name is Gossart Henri, I am today 57 years old, when I was young, until age 23, I was living in a house just in front of Little Willie, a trench nearby Hohenzollern redoubt, located in Auchy les mines, you can see easily this house with google earth (N° 280, rue de Dunkerque, 62138 Auchy les Mines ),

My father is always dwelling in this house.As unbelievable as it could appear, it's only since 2 years that

I have learn ( Thanks to internet and english great war sites! ), what happen in front of my youth house ( I'm living now since 34 years in Scionzier, Haute Savoie, located between Chamonix and

Genéva ) I was intriguate , when I was young, to found a lot of remains, in very great quantity,

like chips of burst metal shells, head of shells in lead metal, bullets, lead shrappnells. Year after years,

childrens and locals earned money by reselling all these remains at the merchant of scrap iron.

The locals inhabitants are not interested at all with the history of their area. When Iwas young, in the

place where trench little willie was located, there was a lot of very deep craters of mines. Years after

years, all these were filled with rubbish. I remember permanents clouds of smelly smoke during years and years.Only the place where the redoubt is located( A very little area )remain intact

I have a lot of stories and mémories of all I've found about remains of the battle in this area

I was there on holidays of december 2009, I've take some views of the site, and I have at home some

relics of the battle field( All quoted above + a very nice bayonet found on the battlefield, I don't now

if it is a English or German one) If you want information or views, don't hesitate, I'm indebted for all

the stuff I've learn on english sites .The story of the tramp living in the trees is real, I remember one,

I don't think it's the same, dwelling in this area.The trees are cutting now on this area,you can always see the ground turn up side down make by the shells, this area is located in the no man's land, I have

take severals views and movies of the bumps, it's a small but very precious testimony of the battle

fight violence, the only area remaining virgin until this day since the end of the war

Be watchful, English people, to preserve these testimony of a lot of mens sacrifice in this area

Henri

[jainvince]

Henri

So good to hear from you. As I am visiting the area in April 2010 it would be fascinating to see your pictures etc. Please post hem if you can.

Bernard

[truthergw]

Hi!

My name is Gossart Henri, I am today 57 years old, when I was young, until age 23, I was living in a house just in front of Little Willie, a trench nearby Hohenzollern redoubt, located in Auchy les mines, you can see easily this house with google earth (N° 280, rue de Dunkerque, 62138 Auchy les Mines ),

........................................

Henri

Bonjour Henri. Great to make contact with a resident of this area with its very stirring past. My Grandfather was wounded and captured in this area. It is quite possible he was hit by machinegun fire from a gun in the cemetery in Auchy which is still there but of course, a bit bigger. As you say, much of the area has been altered and most of the landmarks have gone. I stood very close to the spot where he was hit, in a field behind some gardens. I could hear children laughing, squealing and having a great time. I suspect a trampoline was in use. I felt then and still do, that my grandfather would have been happy to know that houses were built where he gave his life and that children would be able to laugh and play on the spot. Certainly we ought to have memorials as well as the cemeteries but I think the land is for living on and my grandad and his comrades were fighting for that. I'd love to see pics of your finds or of the area before it was reclaimed.

[Guest Gossart Henri]

Good afternoon Tom and Bernard,

Thank for your replies, I'm just come back from work, I've tried to insert pictures in the forum, but I can't do it

Can you tell me how I can do it ?

Or, If you want, I can send some pictures on your own E mail address

henrigossart@aol.com

Henri

[truthergw]

You need to make 10 posts before you can put pictures up but it is much better if you use Flickr or Photobucket and simply post a link.

[jainvince]

Good afternoon Tom and Bernard,

..............

Or, If you want, I can send some pictures on your own E mail address

henrigossart@aol.com

Henri

Have sent you an email.

Bernard

[fritz]

Hello Henri,

very interesting what you tell about your experience of Loos battlefield. My grandfather had been there for a short while in September 1916 before going on to the Somme. His position was between Hulluch and Haisnes near the quarries at Cite St. Elie.

I possess some pics of the trenches there and I would like to publish them if wanted.

And of course I would like to know anything about remains of my GF´s time there.

Kind regards

Fritz