MartH Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Hi, I been asked to help a collector abroad get some information on 2 pistols. We believe one is the one a German Officer was issued with after Feburary 1916, probably in command of machine gun section, and the other we don't know, except Russian made in USA. We are interested in any information, especially when made. Many thanks in advance, Mart The Russian translated, last photo literally says "Smith & Wesson arms factory Springfield America" Second Gun I'll post when I get a reply allowing me to post 3 more photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 I'm off to check my books! but here is your reply....! What calibre is this revolver? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 That's a S&W Model 3 Russian First Model in .44 S&W Russian. These were made in 1871-74 and 20,014 were delivered to the Russian government. Those contract models are rarely seen in the U.S., according to Flayderman's Guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 9 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Other Gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 9 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Thanks for those two answers, I was going to say I'd find out the calibre, but Pete answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcjgscott Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 A very nice and a very scarce example. I wouldn't be suprised if some of these contract revolvers saw service in the first world war, carried by Russian officers, so it could well be a German "pick-up". You can often encounter Belgian copies, but nice to see one with the Cyrillic markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegwf Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Hello Mart, You revolver is a Smith & Wesson Model 3 Russian First Model. These revolvers were manufactured by Smith & Wesson for the Russian government in .44 S&W Russian caliber, delivery began in May of 1871. All of the contract guns were marked with Cyrillic barrel stampings and the Russian Imperial Eagle under which appeared the chief inspector's initials, K.O. for Kasavery Ordinettz. The serial numbers are on the butt, rear of the cylinder,barrel latch and barrel. The 20,000 contract guns were compelety delivered to the Russian Government by the fall of 1872. I hope this information is helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Rats! Pete beat me to it: Here is a wiki link! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegwf Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 The second pistol appears to be Bergmann Bayard 1910. My information says these pistols were produced at the Pieper plant at Herstal, Belgium which was overrun by the Germans in 1914. The pistols were manufactured in 7.65 caliber. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Any chance of showing/transcribing what is engraved on the side. It appears to be "Ancien Etablissment ?EPEN" and Breveter (Patent?) which would suggest a French or Belgian piece. Interesting looking. Chris EDIT: Agree with Gene. I believe they were also used by Denmark? (perhaps in 9mm largo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old War Skule Posted 10 August , 2009 Share Posted 10 August , 2009 Wow, those are both nice pieces. The Smith and Wesson is basically an "American" model with a few modifications to suit the Russians. If it's not deactivated, it could easily be worth over $1500 to $2000. The Bergman is pretty rare in the US, and while interesting, doesn't generate the interest of a Parabellum 08, or "Luger." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 August , 2009 Share Posted 10 August , 2009 The stamping reads "Ancien Establissments PIEPER, Herstal-Liege". Bergmann sold 3,000 of these pistols to the Spanish government in 1908 and because he did not want to set up production facilities for a small order, negotiated with Ancien Establissments Pieper (AEP) in Liege to make them for him. This they did and also sold the pistol commercially as the Bergmann-Bayard. Additionally they obtained a further order for 4,840 pistols from the Danish government. One of the distinguishing features of the Danish pistols was the semi-circular cut outs in the magazine housing to assist in loading the magazine (as yours has). The German invasion interrupted the delivery of these pistols to Denmark and the Germans took over the factory. It is almost certain that yours dates from this time. The Danes went on to manufacture the pistol themselves and called it the Model 1910/21. The calibre is actually 9mm Bergmann, which is a 9 x 23mm round, slightly longer than the normal 9 x 19mm Parabellum (Luger). It is very similar, but not identical, to the 9mm Steyr. There is little I can add to the details about the .44 S & W Russian that have already been posted. A couple of points. Is the rear of the butt slotted for a holster/stock? What is the serial number? And the final nasty, what are you going to do as they are presumably not on a certificate? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 10 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2009 Thanks everyone for their rapid replies, and to TonyE validating the information. More pictures are on there way, including the holster for the Bergmann. The text on it is Ancien Establissments Pieper, Herstal-Liege, Bergmanns' Patent. To the left Brevete. S.G.D.G. I understand the legality of the guns is being sorted/or is sorted, the person already has a pistol license, (it's not the UK). Is the serial number is under the gun on one of the photos, 9924? Thanks again, Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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