Kilt Puzzle

[ewillm]

I have a uniform puzzle I need some help figuring out. My great uncle's Black Watch kilt has been passed down to me but after doing some research on hiim I can't figure out why he had it. He was a Royal Military College graduate in Canada (1913) and a lieutenant in the 28th New Brunswick Dragoons from 1913-14. He enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force and was killed at Ypres as a member of the Canadian Engineers. Does it make sense to anyone out there that he would have a Black Watch kilt given this information? It seems that the NB Dragoons had some affiliation with the Royal Scots Greys but their tartant is Stewart. Could it be that he had some affiliation with a Highland regiment after enlisting and before becoming a member of the RCE?

Thanks for any insight or guesses!

[roughdiamond]

There is a Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment of Canada) who had 11,954 serve with them in WW1 (see link below) and still exists to this day, I can only surmise he was a member at some point before joining the RCE, have you got or looked for a copy of his medal card or service history?

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/

[206thCEF]

......Or, you could submit your question to the the Canadian Expeditionary Force Study Group, link below, and also giving as many details as you can like, name,place of residence,medals won (if any).etc,etc,etc,

Joe

http://www.cefresearch.com/phpBB2/index.php

[HERITAGE PLUS]

I am no expert, neither am i a Scot , and this may be a red herring but the kiltsmay note be related to a Black Watch Regiment as the tartan is also the 'Government' Tartan(?).

Dave

[roughdiamond]

I am no expert, neither am i a Scot , and this may be a red herring but the kiltsmay note be related to a Black Watch Regiment as the tartan is also the 'Government' Tartan(?).

Dave

The term "Government Tartan" originates from the fact that when the Black Watch were formed, the Tartan was created for them unlike the other Highland Regiments who's Tartan was taken from the Clan name of the Cheiftain who's area they were raised in or raised by e.g. Gordon Highlanders, Seaforths, Camerons, Argylls etc.

Now with all Scottish Infantry Regiments (other than the Scots Guards) coming under The Royal Regiment of Scotland, they wear a new Government Tartan similar to that of the Black Watch.

[Joe Sweeney]

Can you post a photo of the Kilt?

Do you know if he had any other Militia service other than the 28th NB Dragoons? Like the 5th?

When he went into the CEF did he only serve in the CE?

Joe Sweeney

[ewillm]

Thanks all! I have found the answer. Mr. Sweeney and roughdiamond were on the right track. James Curzon Morrow was appointed to the 5th in 1914 and then transferred to the RCE. I found this picture in the Veteran Affairs archive and when enlarging it discovered it was a clipping with additional information.

Thanks again!

ernest

[206thCEF]

Hi Ernest, here is the CWGC information on him.

Joe

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=152922

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...5200&mode=1

[206thCEF]

Also found more informations. On the 13th Bn. embarkation list, he is listed as a Lieutenant in "F" Company of the 13th Bn. He listed as next-of-kin.....Mrs James Morrow, North West Arm, Halifax,Nova Scotia. A fellow Lieutenant in "F" coy was Francis Stuart Molson of the famous Molson brewery family of Montreal........

Hoping this help.

Joe

[Piorun]

Realise your man was in the 5th, but here is your Black Watch connection:

The 13th Battalion (Royal Highlanders of Canada) of the Canadian Expeditionary Force was an active service battalion during the First World War. The battalion was formed from volunteers from the Royal Highland Regiment of Canada (The Black Watch), a militia regiment based in Montreal, as well as men from other militia regiments. Sent to England as part of the First Contingent in September, 1914, the 13th Battalion became part of the 3rd Brigade of the 1st Canadian Division. The 3rd Brigade had the distinction of containing the 13th Battalion (the Royal Highlanders of Canada), the 14th Battalion (the Royal Montreal Regiment), the 15th Battalion (the 48th Highlanders of Canada) and the 16th Battalion (the Canadian Scottish). The 1st Canadian Division served on the Western Front from April, 1915 until the armistice in November, 1918.

Yours, Antony

[ewillm]

Also found more informations. On the 13th Bn. embarkation list, he is listed as a Lieutenant in "F" Company of the 13th Bn. He listed as next-of-kin.....Mrs James Morrow, North West Arm, Halifax,Nova Scotia. A fellow Lieutenant in "F" coy was Francis Stuart Molson of the famous Molson brewery family of Montreal........

Hoping this help.

Joe

Thanks for the additional info Joe! I wonder if the embarkation list is available online, I would love to find a copy for my records.

Thanks,

ernest

[206thCEF]

Hello Ernest, I had to retrace my steps a bit but here it is. Just follow the intructions and you will have the embarkation list. Depending on your computer you will have to enlarge the pages until you get to "F" company and voila.........

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tmn5mmynmej

Cheers

Joe

[ewillm]

Hello Ernest, I had to retrace my steps a bit but here it is. Just follow the intructions and you will have the embarkation list. Depending on your computer you will have to enlarge the pages until you get to "F" company and voila.........

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tmn5mmynmej

Cheers

Joe

Thanks a million!

ernest

[206thCEF]

just happy to be of service Ernest. Cheers.

Joe

[MBrockway]

The term "Government Tartan" originates from the fact that when the Black Watch were formed, the Tartan was created for them unlike the other Highland Regiments who's Tartan was taken from the Clan name of the Cheiftain who's area they were raised in or raised by e.g. Gordon Highlanders, Seaforths, Camerons, Argylls etc.

I think the origins of the Black Watch sett are more complicated than that ... and not a little controversial even! And I think the tartans of other regiments didn't come about that way either!

Tradition has the Black Watch design as being "invented" by Lord Crawford, who was commissioned to form the regiment. While the pattern is not identical to any pattern then existing, the key characteristics of the unusual way the pattern repeats have been identified in several examples of tartans pre-dating the founding of the Black Watch, several of which have strong Jacobite connections, which is rather ironic for the "Government" pattern! LOL!

The most plausible theory I have read suggests that the structural features of the Black Watch design derive from several diverse "district" tartans already in use in the districts from where the Black Watch originally was raised.

Another tradition suggests it is based on an old Campbell design, but there is little actual evidence to support this.

The best discussion I have come across on all this is to be found in Donald Calder Stewart's The Setts of the Scottish Tartans (1930) pp. 26-28. Worth looking up in a good reference library if you get the chance.

The Black Watch is of course the oldest of the Highland regiments. All the others were raised after it.

The Gordon Highlanders did not adopt the tartan of the Chief of the Gordon clan. The Gordon is a regimental tartan entirely invented from scratch in 1794, when the regiment was raised, by the simple addition of a thin yellow line into the Black Watch pattern.

Clan Gordon prior to this wore the Huntly pattern, but only as a dress tartan. As elsewhere, the everyday "tartan" would have been any one of the district patterns of the area around Huntly. The idea of clan members wearing a family tartan as a sort of strict uniform, is really a Victorian concoction!

Similarly the Seaforth Highlanders added white and red lines into the Black Watch to create MacKenzie, which was only then adopted as a "Clan tartan" by the MacKenzies.

The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wear the Black Watch pattern but woven in slightly lighter shades and kilted to emphasise the green in the pattern rather than the blue.

The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders had a completely new tartan designed for them from scratch by the mother of their Founder!

In fact TBH, so far I've failed to find a Highland Regiment that adopted the family tartan of the dominant Chieftain of their recruiting areas! Apart from the QOCH, they all used tartans based on the Black Watch Government sett or the Royal Stewart.

Cheers,

Mark

[Ian Riley]

The term "Government Tartan" originates from the fact that when the Black Watch were formed, the Tartan was created for them unlike the other Highland Regiments who's Tartan was taken from the Clan name of the Cheiftain who's area they were raised in or raised by e.g. Gordon Highlanders, Seaforths, Camerons, Argylls etc.

Now with all Scottish Infantry Regiments (other than the Scots Guards) coming under The Royal Regiment of Scotland, they wear a new Government Tartan similar to that of the Black Watch.

I thought they were wearing the (lighter) version of the Government tartan as worn previously by the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders rather than a (brand) new tartan

Ian

Ooops, I thought Roughdiamond's was the last post but I think it was simply at the bottom of my screen. Mark has really already made this point.

Edited 13 August , 2009 by Ian Riley

[Old War Skule]

I think the origins of the Black Watch sett are more complicated than that ... and not a little controversial even! And I think the tartans of other regiments didn't come about that way either!

Tradition has the Black Watch design as being "invented" by Lord Crawford, who was commissioned to form the regiment. While the pattern is not identical to any pattern then existing, the key characteristics of the unusual way the pattern repeats have been identified in several examples of tartans pre-dating the founding of the Black Watch, several of which have strong Jacobite connections, which is rather ironic for the "Government" pattern! LOL!

The most plausible theory I have read suggests that the structural features of the Black Watch design derive from several diverse "district" tartans already in use in the districts from where the Black Watch originally was raised.

Another tradition suggests it is based on an old Campbell design, but there is little actual evidence to support this.

The best discussion I have come across on all this is to be found in Donald Calder Stewart's The Setts of the Scottish Tartans (1930) pp. 26-28. Worth looking up in a good reference library if you get the chance.

The Black Watch is of course the oldest of the Highland regiments. All the others were raised after it.

The Gordon Highlanders did not adopt the tartan of the Chief of the Gordon clan. The Gordon is a regimental tartan entirely invented from scratch in 1794, when the regiment was raised, by the simple addition of a thin yellow line into the Black Watch pattern.

Clan Gordon prior to this wore the Huntley pattern, but only as a dress tartan. As elsewhere, the everyday "tartan" would have been any one of the district patterns of the area around Huntley. The idea of clan members wearing a family tartan as a sort of strict uniform, is really a Victorian concoction!

Similarly the Seaforth Highlanders added white and red lines into the Black Watch to create MacKenzie, which was only then adopted as a "Clan tartan" by the MacKenzies.

The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wear the Black Watch pattern but woven in slightly lighter shades and kilted to emphasise the green in the pattern rather than the blue.

The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders had a completely new tartan designed for them from scratch by the mother of their Founder!

In fact TBH, so far I've failed to find a Highland Regiment that adopted the family tartan of the dominant Chieftain of their recruiting areas! Apart from the QOCH, they all used tartans based on the Black Watch Government sett or the Royal Stewart.

Cheers,

Mark

Thanks for your concise explanation, Mark!

[Joe Sweeney]

The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wear the Black Watch pattern but woven in slightly lighter shades and kilted to emphasise the green in the pattern rather than the blue.

Actually, this only true for post Great War (as Far as having a lighter colored sett).

This has been a bit of a debate in the past. Before and during the Great War the BW and A&SH Tartan was the same. At that time only the following was available for Kilt Manufacture:

From PVCN 1907 through 1915

Tartans

Designation

No. 1 (42nd)

Worn by

Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

Royal Highlanders

Description

Alternate dark green and blue stripes (about 2 ¼ inches) separated by black stripes (about 1 inch) each way as a groundwork. Green stripes intersected by narrow black stripes and blue stripes intersected by double narrow black stripes.

In addition the RACD pattern descriptions confirm this for:

Pattern 7952/1913 for the Royal Highlander’s (BW) and pattern 8055/1914 for the A&SH.

The difference in Kilt patterns was the BW had what was called a Barrel or Cane pleat, which was a hybrid between a Box pleat and Knife Pleat. The A&SH had a Box Pleat.

It was only after the Great War that Tartan No. 1a was adopted for the A&SH.

Up until 1914 the War Office only had only 9 Setts on Inventory and approved:

No. 1 (42nd) Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders Royal Highlanders

No. 2 (McKenzie) Seaforth Highlanders

No. 3 (Gordon) Gordon Highlanders

No.4 (Cameron) Cameron Highlanders

No.5 (McKenzie) Highland Light Infantry

No.6 (Douglas) Scottish Rifles

No.7 (Leslie) Kings Own Scottish Borderers

No.8 (Hunting Stewart) Royal Scots

Scots Guards (Royal Stewart) Scots Guards and Pipers, Royal Highlanders

During the War additional Setts were approved such as:

Fraser

Hodden Grey\

etc.

Prior 1914 those setts were only asssociated with the TF and procured through the TFAs and not the War Office.

Irronically it was after the war that an explosion in approved Setts happened and went from a total of 9 in 1914 to ~20 to 30 post war.

Joe Sweeney

[MBrockway]

Actually, this only true for post Great War (as Far as having a lighter colored sett).

This has been a bit of a debate in the past. Before and during the Great War the BW and A&SH Tartan was the same. At that time only the following was available for Kilt Manufacture:

From PVCN 1907 through 1915

Tartans

Designation

No. 1 (42nd)

Worn by

Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

Royal Highlanders

Description

Alternate dark green and blue stripes (about 2 ¼ inches) separated by black stripes (about 1 inch) each way as a groundwork. Green stripes intersected by narrow black stripes and blue stripes intersected by double narrow black stripes.

In addition the RACD pattern descriptions confirm this for:

Pattern 7952/1913 for the Royal Highlander's (BW) and pattern 8055/1914 for the A&SH.

The difference in Kilt patterns was the BW had what was called a Barrel or Cane pleat, which was a hybrid between a Box pleat and Knife Pleat. The A&SH had a Box Pleat.

It was only after the Great War that Tartan No. 1a was adopted for the A&SH.

Up until 1914 the War Office only had only 9 Setts on Inventory and approved:

No. 1 (42nd) Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders Royal Highlanders

No. 2 (McKenzie) Seaforth Highlanders

No. 3 (Gordon) Gordon Highlanders

No.4 (Cameron) Cameron Highlanders

No.5 (McKenzie) Highland Light Infantry

No.6 (Douglas) Scottish Rifles

No.7 (Leslie) Kings Own Scottish Borderers

No.8 (Hunting Stewart) Royal Scots

Scots Guards (Royal Stewart) Scots Guards and Pipers, Royal Highlanders

During the War additional Setts were approved such as:

Fraser

Hodden Grey\

etc.

Prior 1914 those setts were only asssociated with the TF and procured through the TFAs and not the War Office.

Irronically it was after the war that an explosion in approved Setts happened and went from a total of 9 in 1914 to ~20 to 30 post war.

Joe Sweeney

Fantastic info Joe, and duly filed away with my tartan reference material

Do you by any chance have the thread counts for the nine pre-1914 War Office setts?

Also any details on the exact difference between the two MacKenzies (Nos. 2 & 5)? IIRC the HLI version was much "wider". That should also show up in the thread counts of course.

Lastly, I'd be very interested in any detail (especially thread count) you have on the Forbes. I am researching three WW2 Liverpool Scottish commandos who were billeted with my grandparents. They were some of the last Scots to wear the kilt in combat at St Nazaire in 1942. I'm trying to confirm whether there was a military version, or if the Liverpool Scots used the standard Forbes sett.

Cheers,

Mark

[Joe Sweeney]

Mark,

Not sure about thread counts.

He are the official pattern descriptions for:

No. 2 (McKenzie)

Seaforth Highlanders

Alternate blue and green stripes (about 2 inches) separated by black stripes (about ¾ inch) each way as a groundwork. Green stripes intersected by narrow white stripes (edged in black) 5 ½ inches apart and alternate blue stripes intersected by narrow scarlet stripes 11 inches apart.

No.5 (McKenzie)

Highland Light Infantry

Alternate dark green and blue stripes (about 2 1/3 inches) separated by black stripes (about 1 inch) each way as a groundwork. Green stripes intersected by white stripes 7 inches apart and alternate blue stripes intersected by scarlet stripes 14 inches apart.

The No. 5 did not apply to the 6th HLI which used the No. 2 tartan. The difference between a 6th HLI Kilt and a Seaforth's is the HLI used a knife pleat and did not have the elastic band across the pleats where as the Seaforth's had a box pleat and an elastic band.

When I wrote Fraser in the above post I actually meant "Forbes" Dah. I don't have the "official" pattern description.

Regiments (T.F Battalion)

10th Battalion Kings (Liverpool Scottish) Regiment

RACD Pattern for ORs Kilt

8454/1915

Date

29-Aug-15

Tartan

Forbes (Tartan approved pattern 8411/1915, 2 June 1915)

Pleat in Kilt

knife

Hope this helps,

Joe Sweeney

[MBrockway]

Mark,

Not sure about thread counts.

..

..

Hope this helps,

Joe Sweeney

Joe,

Very helpful indeed. I'll compare the given widths for the white and red stripes with the thread counts in my reference books and see if I can verify if the military Mackenzie sett is included, then report back hopefully with the actual thread counts!

May take a while though.

Cheers,

Mark