WHICH IS THE CORRECT MEDAL CARD

[Ghost]

George is shown on the 1911 census index, Born 1886, age 25, Living Walsall Staffordshire.

Don't know if the census info will be any use to you, but I believe there is much more info on a person than the previous census records.

Alan

[Piorun]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned in the many posts ... but RFA 975/845724 will be a territorial number and the latter number would indicate a link with a South Midlands territorial artillery unit....Birmingham or Coventry area fall in that catchment (Staffordshire was N Midlands Div).. so that is a possible lead - I think those numbers were assigned to 48th and 61st Divisional ammunition Column men, both South Midland recruited - they were originally 1st S`Midland and 2nd S Midland divisions.. I believe

david

Hello, David: Yes, I mentioned that I thought there was a TF connection to that number in my last response to Lynne. I did not know that it was a South Midlands number and greatly appreciate the information (don't mean to hi-jack your thread, Lynne ). Being so, that seems to throw more weight behind the probability of George Loveridge R/359407. No? Yours, Antony

[SteveE]

Being so, that seems to throw more weight behind the probability of George Loveridge R/359407. No? Yours, Antony

Sorry Antony but I don't follow your reasoning for discounting DM2/179605 unless it has something to do with the fact he's a Corporal?? DM2 was a prefix used in the ASC upto 1916 so could include the George Loveridge in question?

Regards

Steve

[PPCLI]

What occupation/army details are given on the birth certificates for his children?

Lily May Loveridge - Born: 29th April 1915

Hilda Loveridge - Born 6th August 1916

Harold Loveridge - Born 10th March 1918

Surely some mention of his army service - perhaps a rank such as gunner/driver would help narrow things down.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Piorun]

Sorry Antony but I don't follow your reasoning for discounting DM2/179605 unless it has something to do with the fact he's a Corporal?? DM2 was a prefix used in the ASC upto 1916 so could include the George Loveridge in question?

Regards

Steve

Hello, Steve: Good question. I didn't discount him entirely but, given the dearth of real knowledge, I'm having to try and help Lynne by working on a forensic balance of probabilities. I considered his occupation as a furnaceman and how likely it might have led to a designation of "Mechanical Transport Learner" - bearing in mind that a furnaceman, indeed most working class townspeople unless already employed in a transportation trade, of the early 20th Century would have little functional contact with mechanical transport (other than trams and buses) in their lives. Horse-drawn was still very prevalent even through WW2. I also asked Lynne if there was any family recollection of "stripes". Given no positive reply and the aforementioned socio-economic assessment (neither of which, of course, is factually conclusive) I sensed the balance tip away from DM2/179605. That's all. I wish I could do more. Yours, Antony

PS by the way, I thought DM2 was a post-war designation (Long, Long Trail) - no?

[Lynne Storry]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned in the many posts ... but RFA 975/845724 will be a territorial number and the latter number would indicate a link with a South Midlands territorial artillery unit....Birmingham or Coventry area fall in that catchment (Staffordshire was N Midlands Div).. so that is a possible lead - I think those numbers were assigned to 48th and 61st Divisional ammunition Column men, both South Midland recruited - they were originally 1st S`Midland and 2nd S Midland divisions.. I believe

david

Hi David,

I just can't believe the knowledge you guys have. It is absolutely fascinating. This one looks like a real possibility, but could you explain the definition of the territorial artillery unit, please? Bearing in mind that my Grandfather lived in Handsworth (West Bromwich), which was Staffordshire, but is Birmingham today, could he not just have been called up and just allocated to a division far away from his home area that required men, or did they always put men in divisions from their home region? In those times West Bromwich was close to Birmingham, Warwickshire. I am positive that he would not have enlisted. He would have been called up, but I am now wondering where he would have been told to report to. Any ideas?

Lynne

[SteveE]

Hello, Steve: Good question. I didn't discount him entirely but, given the dearth of real knowledge, I'm having to try and help Lynne by working on a forensic balance of probabilities. I considered his occupation as a furnaceman and how likely it might have led to a designation of "Mechanical Transport Learner" - bearing in mind that a furnaceman, indeed most working class townspeople unless already employed in a transportation trade, of the early 20th Century would have little functional contact with mechanical transport (other than trams and buses) in their lives. Horse-drawn was still very prevalent even through WW2. I also asked Lynne if there was any family recollection of "stripes". Given no positive reply and the aforementioned socio-economic assessment (neither of which, of course, is factually conclusive) I sensed the balance tip away from DM2/179605. That's all. I wish I could do more. Yours, Antony

PS by the way, I thought DM2 was a post-war designation (Long, Long Trail) - no?

Hi Antony

I fully understand the difficulties and logic by which you're trying to help Lynne, it's never easy when there's very little concrete evidence to go on and trying to eliminate the more unlikely possibilities to give a positive result has to be a way forward. Trouble is our perceived logic doesn't always fit, for example you've potentially discounted the possibility of a furnaceman being a Mechanical Transport Learner and leant towards him being in the Remount section working with horses (The R/ prefix), I can't see that one is any more likely than the other and would perhaps even be the other way round?

What I would say, based on your previous narrowing down of the possibles is that the RFA man could be worth following, there are a number of service records (half dozen or so) on Ancestry of Handsworth men enlisting in the South Midlands Brigade RFA so it's certainly not out of the question, proving it is the difficultly.

I may have missed Lynne's response but I would echo Stuart's thoughts, do the birth certificates of the three children give any clues?

Regards

Steve

[SteveE]

PS by the way, I thought DM2 was a post-war designation (Long, Long Trail) - no?

No. DM2 was a designation that ceased to be in late 1916, I've had a read of the LLT and can see how you might have got that impression

I quote (the bolding is mine).....

"In 1920, the army introduced a new system of issuing numbers to its men and women. Each soldier would have a unique number, an army number. Before that, each regiment (and in some cases, the units in a regiment) issued its own numbers. This meant that when a man changed regiments, he usually had to change number. Some of those regimental numbering schemes included letter prefixes."

I believe the RASC did use prefixes post-1920 but only S/ (Supplies), T/ (Transport), M/ (Mechanical Transport) and R/ (Remounts).

Regards

Steve

[Piorun]

Hello, Steve: I really appreciate your expansion of my thinking on this one. I'm trying as hard as I can to give this trail some direction that might, at least, make some logical sense for Lynne upon forensic examination. I admit that I absolutely hadn't connected the "R" with "Remount". I was thinking along infantry lines (fully realising the RASC isn't Infantry) and assuming that it was an old regimental prefix. Where would all this leave us - working with motor horses or real horses - or just an idiosyncratic regimental prefix? I also apologise for typing "post-war" instead of "pre-war" (it's usually late when I log on and I'm not as young as I used to be ) - I had been thinking that the DM2 and the Corporal's rank together might suggest that the man had been in the Army from before the War. If the "R" absolutely means "Remount" and we also decide that a furnaceman wouldn't likely go for that, then, yes, we tip towards the Gunner - especially if there's some corroborating evidence that other local men went south. I love PPCLI's suggestion but it would be too much like the pot of gold if Lynne's man had put down his Army occupation on a baptismal certificate. I promise you that I'd get over from Canada and buy you all a beer Trouble is, the usual practice was to designate by civilian trade, especially in an age when trades were often lifetime work that started in one's family a generation or two earlier. Where do you think this trail leads us? Yours, Antony

[SteveE]

I love PPCLI's suggestion but it would be too much like the pot of gold if Lynne's man had put down his Army occupation on a baptismal certificate. <snip> Trouble is, the usual practice was to designate by civilian trade, especially in an age when trades were often lifetime work that started in one's family a generation or two earlier. Where do you think this trail leads us?

Antony

It would need to be the Birth Certificate rather than a baptismal one but it wasn't unusual for a soldiers details, both Army AND civilian to be entered on the certificate (it's how I traced my GGrandfathers RE unit and 3 out of 4 wartime certificates I've got have that level of detail on them, the fourth merely says soldier). However, having re-read this thread I get the feeling from an earlier post that in Lynne's instance this isn't the case and only the civilian trade is listed. I guess local newspapers would be the next step or are there any other family members that could be asked?

Regards

Steve

[PPCLI]

Hello,

I asked about the birth certificates because my research agrees with Steve's - the majority of WW1 entries give details of army service. All Scottish certificates that I have viewed give service details (e.g. Corporal KOSB) with their civilian occupation in brackets. Lynne didn't explicitly state that she had copies of the birth certificates, she may have got the dates from other sources (e.g. family bible), so I just wanted to check. If she is unlucky and no army details are given, then I would follow Steve's suggestion regards local newspapers.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Lynne Storry]

Hello,

I asked about the birth certificates because my research agrees with Steve's - the majority of WW1 entries give details of army service. All Scottish certificates that I have viewed give service details (e.g. Corporal KOSB) with their civilian occupation in brackets. Lynne didn't explicitly state that she had copies of the birth certificates, she may have got the dates from other sources (e.g. family bible), so I just wanted to check. If she is unlucky and no army details are given, then I would follow Steve's suggestion regards local newspapers.

Cheers,

Stuart

Good afternoon gentlemen,

I will qualify certain points that may or may not be helpful. None of the birth certificates give any information other than that he was a furnaceman or a bricklayer. I am trying to track down where they were all baptised, to see if there are any other bits of information in the Church books. I do, however, know that the dates of birth and baptism given above are absolutely correct. My Grandfather, unbeknown to my Father, had come from a gypsy family. Weren't they supposed to know a great deal about horses? I believe that George Loveridge,s Gt. Gt. Grandfather actually helped deal in horses for the government during the War. His name was Esau Smith, and I believe others of the Smith/Loveridge family did the same thing. My Father says that he can't remember his Father ever showing an interest in horses though. George Loveridge did try to cover his tracks about being a gypsy, and it was only through my Father's eldest daughter that we found this out. None of his other Brothers and Sisters knew about it. Dad says that one of George Loveridge's closest friend was the founder of Whittles Coaches, and he could often be found helping him out. Thats all I can think of at the moment, but please keep the info rolling. I think that you are all brilliant.

Lynne

[Marc Thompson]

I can confirm that 13958 Pte George LOVERIDGE, 14/Hants and 12/Hants isn't your man.

He was the son of Joseph and Emma Loveridge and was aged 15 in 1911, working as a Leather Belt Repairer. The family lived at 48 Crafton Street, Landport, Portsmouth so the link with this George joining 14/Hants (1st Pompey pals) 3 years later is logical. His regimental number provides an enlistment date of 08/10/1914.

Marc

[Lynne Storry]

I can confirm that 13958 Pte George LOVERIDGE, 14/Hants and 12/Hants isn't your man.

He was the son of Joseph and Emma Loveridge and was aged 15 in 1911, working as a Leather Belt Repairer. The family lived at 48 Crafton Street, Landport, Portsmouth so the link with this George joining 14/Hants (1st Pompey pals) 3 years later is logical. His regimental number provides an enlistment date of 08/10/1914.

Marc

Thanks Mark. That is one more off the list.

Lynne