"European civil war"

[John_Hartley]

Just an odd thought given that the 'World Series' is confined to teams from North America (Japanese teams I understand have asked to compete but been turned down) could not America call the ACW the World War?

Unfortunately for centurion's great idea, I understand the "World" bit refers to the newspaper that originally sponsored it, rather than any international intent. 'tis a great shame.

[John Gilinsky]

Just an odd thought given that the 'World Series' is confined to teams from North America (Japanese teams I understand have asked to compete but been turned down) could not America call the ACW the World War?

Centurion: I hope you are sitting down with nothing in your hands when you read my reply. If you google or go into the Internet and search American library catalogues under "Great War" you WILL generally find that they do indeed refer to the ACW as the GREAT WAR!

John

Toronto

CANADA

[14kvn]

Centurion: I hope you are sitting down with nothing in your hands when you read my reply. If you google or go into the Internet and search American library catalogues under "Great War" you WILL generally find that they do indeed refer to the ACW as the GREAT WAR!

John

Toronto

CANADA

John and all others who have posted on this topic.

Wow - I am fascinated by your post and others and I never expected my original post to cause so much comment.

My computer has a Dictionary Called The New Oxford American Dictionary and it's definition of Civil Wars is " A war between citizens of the same Country "

Americans are well known for Re-writing History - I wonder what they will call Iraq " The Greatest ever World War to eliminate Weapons of Mass Destruction " ?

My Grandfather got 3 arm chevrons for being on the Western Front for 3 Years - he was not fighting a Civil War - he answered his country's call and fought Pro Rege , Pro Patria.

In memory of all the Soldiers who fought on The Western Front 1914 - 1918 and as an elderly Belgian shopkeeper in Ieper once said to me - "Son, it's because of people like your Grandfather that we are here today "

Thanks to all for all your views and comments

Kevin

[Desdichado]

Centurion: I hope you are sitting down with nothing in your hands when you read my reply. If you google or go into the Internet and search American library catalogues under "Great War" you WILL generally find that they do indeed refer to the ACW as the GREAT WAR!

John

Toronto

CANADA

That's a new one on me. In the southern states, I've heard the ACW referred to as the "War of Northern Aggression", and in the north as the "War of Southern Secession" but never as the "Great War".

There's an American author named Harry Turtledove who has written an alternate history of the civil war and one of his titles is TGW. Perhaps it is this you're referring to?

[John Gilinsky]

Not exactly. While compiling a list of American web sites on the AEF etc...I came across in my keyword search that several if not many American libraries including University and College collections at least for older titles say (pre-1960) refer to the ACW as the Great War.

John

[Desdichado]

Not exactly. While compiling a list of American web sites on the AEF etc...I came across in my keyword search that several if not many American libraries including University and College collections at least for older titles say (pre-1960) refer to the ACW as the Great War.

John

Interesting, but, as I said, new to me. Have you read much current American material on WWI where the term is used?

[Gibbo]

For years I believed, & even spread, the story that the World Series was so called because it was originally sponsored by the World newspaper. However, I went to New York 5 years ago & the guide on the open topped tour bus, whose comments indicated that he was clearly a big baseball fan, said that this wasn't true, as no major US team sport league had ever been sponsored.

[Jim Clay]

Martin

That was my understanding too - until now. Wikipedia confirms what your tour guide says:

The title of this championship may seem odd to some readers from countries where baseball is not a major sport (or even where it is), because the "World" Series is confined to the champions of two baseball leagues that currently operate only in the United States and Canada.

The explanation is that when the term "World's Championship Series" was first used in the 1880s, baseball at a highly-skilled level was almost exclusively confined to North America, especially the United States. Thus it was understood that the winner of the major league championship was the best baseball team in the world. The title of this event was soon shortened to "World's Series" and later to "World Series". "The Series", by itself, capitalized, is understood to mean "The World Series", in the appropriate context.

So, another myth dispelled.

Jim

[George Armstrong Custer]

Centurion: I hope you are sitting down with nothing in your hands when you read my reply. If you google or go into the Internet and search American library catalogues under "Great War" you WILL generally find that they do indeed refer to the ACW as the GREAT WAR!

John

Toronto

CANADA

John, putting the words 'Great' and 'War' into American library search engines will bring up a lot of results referring to the Civil War, simply because the words 'great' and 'war' will commonly appear in one context or another in the entries. I'd surprised though if many of these results were actually giving the words 'Great War' in conjunction and as a common descriptive of the ACW. Like others here have already said, it's not a term I've come across in reference to the Civil War. 'The Civil War' is far and away the commonest title for the war or, less often, 'The War Between the States' or, as already been noted, the Northern or Southern partisan war of 'Northern Aggression' or 'Southern Secession/Rebellion'. Simply 'The Great War' though? New one on me too.

ciao,

GAC

[John_Hartley]

So, another myth dispelled.

Damn! I just hate it when I'm wrong.

[paul guthrie]

I have never once heard the Civil War referred to as Great War. Occasionally as the War Between the States but really it's always referred to as the Civil War.

[truthergw]

Perhaps the acid test. Would you type " The Great War " into Google if you were looking for information on the American Civil War?

[John Gilinsky]

I hope you are all awaiting my websites on the AEF and American participation in the "war" (I wish to stay neutral for now! ) which I think I am going to submit to the GWF shortly.

Perusal of some of the offered links will reveal much relevance to this thread.

John

[ulsterlad2]

I've never heard of the ACW being called The Great War(1). I've never heard of The Great War being called The European Civil War(2)

(1) Did that google thing. Checked the first 12 pages .. not a dicky bird.

(2) I recall one time thinking how WW1 will, very soon, be as far back as Waterloo was when WW1 started. I wondered what peoples thoughts and attitudes might have been back then. During a search of the forum, I came across a thread which was looking at the same thing. i.e. What are our attitudes 100 years afterwards? Are we, this generation, the last to remember, the last to care? Someone on that thread (apologies I don't remember who) predicted that in the future WW1 & WW2 would come to be known as the ECW 1 & 2.

[ulsterlad2]

I hope you are all awaiting my websites on the AEF and American participation in the "war"

Hope to see that soon. I'd be very interested in that.

[Pete1052]

I've never heard of the Civil War in America being referred to as the Great War. Librarians often use multiple terms for the indexing of things so perhaps that is the context of what John G. is talking about. The U.S. government called the Civil War the War of the Rebellion.

[John Gilinsky]

Pete: dear southerly neighbour - check out some search engines and better yet look over some older historical library catalogues coverin the American Civil War - you will find I think that staring in the 1890s or later and certainly during the first half of the 20th. century that several books and cataloguing methods refer to the 1861-1865 American Civil War as the GREAT WAR.

John

Toronto

CANADA

[David Seymour]

An article by Christopher Hollis in the October 1939 issue of a journal called The Review of Politics (vol. 1 no. 4) uses the phrase 'what was in essence the European Civil War of 1914.'

Martin,

Thank you for the above, and the rest of your research on this matter. Most interesting that the phrase goes back so far.

With best wishes,

David

[Desdichado]

I've never heard of the ACW being called The Great War(1). I've never heard of The Great War being called The European Civil War(2)

(1) Did that google thing. Checked the first 12 pages .. not a dicky bird.

(2) I recall one time thinking how WW1 will, very soon, be as far back as Waterloo was when WW1 started. I wondered what peoples thoughts and attitudes might have been back then. During a search of the forum, I came across a thread which was looking at the same thing. i.e. What are our attitudes 100 years afterwards? Are we, this generation, the last to remember, the last to care? Someone on that thread (apologies I don't remember who) predicted that in the future WW1 & WW2 would come to be known as the ECW 1 & 2.

At the risk of being labelled an insufferable snob, I prefer to refer to books rather than take a chance on what google comes up with. As for Wiki, well, the less said the better.

Referring to WWI as the ECW is patently nonsense. I've never heard such tosh in my life. I think it was centurion who mention that certain political factions in the UK, and perhaps in Europe too, have tried to portray the conflict as a war between white nations. This brings me to your second point. If our young people are not taught about the Great War, it will not be too long before it fades from memory, leaving the way open for groups to peddle their poison as truth.

[truthergw]

By definition, a global war involving more than one sovereign nation cannot be a civil war. To describe it as such is a figure of speech which we may applaud or deplore but it is not to be taken literally.

[centurion]

"Someone on that thread (apologies I don't remember who) predicted that in the future WW1 & WW2 would come to be known as the ECW 1 & 2."

There is already reference to ECW1 and ECW2 (English Civil War 1 and English Civil War 2) so hands off!

[Desdichado]

I'm watching "The World at War" on the telly this afternoon. In the ultimate episode, the war is referred to as the "European Civil War" by one Stephen Ambrose. I wanted to put my boot through the screen.

[George Armstrong Custer]

one Stephen Ambrose.

Well known plagiarist, so probably something he read somewhere.

[Desdichado]

Well known plagiarist, so probably something he read somewhere.

I hadn't realised he was around in the early 70s when that series was made. Very big in the US with his "Band of Brothers" stuff. I heard he popped his clogs. Is that true?

[George Armstrong Custer]

Yes he died three or four years ago now I think. I first came across him in 1976 when he published his dual biography 'Crazy Horse & Custer' - one of his books which was later identified as having uncredited chunks from other peoples work in it. At that time Ambrose sported shoulder length hair, but his appearance seemed to become more conservative as did his views over the years. A shame about the plagiarism scandal, as he was a readable enough historian.

ciao,

GAC