Postcard of Asquith at hospital 1918

[Footsore Private]

Thanks to Toby Savage at at www.tobysavage.co.uk

[Footsore Private]

Back side of postcard

Thanks to Toby Savage at www.tobysavage.co.uk

[michaeldr]

I regret that the ref. to 'Brig Gen Cyril Asquith DSO' is in error,

and in all probability, it refers to Brigadier General Arthur Melland Asquith DSO**

whose leg was seriously injured, then "turned septic and, in the middle of January it was finally decided that the leg was never going to heal properly, and it was amputated below the left knee." See Command in the Royal Naval Division – A military Biography of Brigadier General A M Asquith DSO by Capt. Christopher Page RN, ISBN 1-86227-048-1

Capt Page also mentions, probably from his records, A M Asquith's admission to '10th General Hospital at Le Treport, on the coast south of Abbeville, on 22 December, the diagnosis was 'GSW Left ankle, satisfactory, not known when he will be evacuated to England' (see page 170)

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

There was a Cyril Asquith who was born in 1890, seven years after Arthur Melland Asquith [the latter was also known as 'Oc']

I have no details of any war service by Cyril Asquith

[michaeldr]

I have no details of any war service by Cyril Asquith

"Cyril Asquith, Baron Asquith of Bishopstone PC, QC (5 February 1890 – 24 August 1954) was an English barrister, judge and law lord.

Cyril Asquith was the fourth son of H. H. Asquith, later Prime Minister and subsequently Earl of Oxford and Asquith, from his first marriage, to Helen Kelsall Melland.

He was educated at Winchester College and Balliol College, Oxford. During the First World War he served in the 16th Battalion, London Regiment, gaining the rank of Captain.

This from Wikipedia – sorry that I cannot add more

regards

Michael

Mods: What's wrong with the italics script/colour/bold type face here?

Edited 24 July , 2009 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

There was a third Asquith brother who did not survive the war

(from the CWGC)

Name: ASQUITH, RAYMOND

Initials: R

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Grenadier Guards

Unit Text: 3rd Bn.

Age: 37

Date of Death: 15/09/1916

Additional information: Son of the Rt. Hon.(and former M.P.) H. H. Asquith, P.C., Prime Minister of the United Kingdom 1908-1916 (now 1st Earl of Oxford and Asquith, K.G.), and Helen his wife; husband of Katharine Asquith, of 17, Oxford Square, London, W.2. One of the war poets.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 3.

Cemetery: GUILLEMONT ROAD CEMETERY, GUILLEMONT

[Antonia G]

My Great-Aunt nursed at Lady Murray's hospital and a near-identical photo is in her album. Next to it are a couple of press cuttings, one about how Commander (later Brig. General) Arthur M Asquith (RNVR) won his DSO, and the other of the wedding of Brig. General Arthur Asquith to the Hon Betty Manners at All Saints Church, Thorney-Hill, Christchurch (unfortunately no dates but from the position in the album it could be 1916). From the photo his left foot has clearly been amputated.

Great-Aunt Nellie isn't in the photo herself, but as far as I can work out from her tiny hadwriting and some signatures on the pages, the front row is (l to r) Matron, Major Newman, Lady Murray, Mr Asquith, G Gilmour, Emily Murray. (Matron is just 'Matron' throughout the album!). The back row (l to r) is: Sister Madeline Sherman, Beatrice V Thomas, Sister Wilson, H Rawson, D Liversedge, M Beatty, Sister Rogers, M Streatfield and Captain Kirkwood RAMC.

Regards,

Antonia

[michaeldr]

Antonia,

Many thanks for posting all those names, though one nurse's name for the back row seems to be missing – do you have it?

Quote: My Great-Aunt nursed at Lady Murray's hospital and a near-identical photo is in her album. Next to it are a couple of press cuttings, one about how Commander (later Brig. General) Arthur M Asquith (RNVR) won his DSO, and the other of the wedding of Brig. General Arthur Asquith to the Hon Betty Manners at All Saints Church, Thorney-Hill, Christchurch (unfortunately no dates but from the position in the album it could be 1916).

Arthur Asquith was described by Bernard Freyberg VC as the bravest man he ever knew. He was awarded the DSO on three separate occasions; for actions at Puisieux & River Trenches in February 1917 (LG April), at Gavrelle in April 1917 and near Poelcappelle in October 1917.

Asquith was wounded (his fourth) at about 1.20pm on 20th December 1917. In a letter to his father he describes how he "climbed out of a trench thinking there was enough mist to conceal me while I cast an eye over the lie of the land. A Bosche sniper, who had also, I suppose, taken advantage of the mist to advance his position, had three shots at me, one penetrating and, I fear, smashing up the left ankle joint: one kicking up the snow: and one grazing my right leg... … …"

After 13 hours on a train he arrived "under the shade of Lady Murray's benign and matronly presence..."

As mentioned earlier, the first operation did not suffice and the leg was amputated below the knee. On 23 February 1918, Asquith was transferred to the UK and to King Edward VII Hospital, Grosvenor Gardens, London, where his progress was sufficient for him to marry Betty on 30th April 1918.

[details from Capt. Page's book, see post #3]

Asquith, the father and former Prime Minister, is pictured on the above postcard surrounded by nurses. This is quite appropriate, since he used to visit the wounded at the London Hospital in the Mile End Road, when in fact he was only hoping to see one of the nurses there; Venetia Stanley.

H H Asquith was not an effective Prime Minister. The first report of the Dardanelles commission found that [item L] "There was no meeting of the War Council between March 19th and May 14th. Meanwhile important land operations were undertaken. We think that before such operations were commenced the War Council should have carefully reconsidered the whole position. In our opinion the Prime Minister ought to have summoned a meeting of the War Council for that purpose,..."

If only H H Asquith had spent more time running the country and its war, and less time writing letters (sometimes three a day!) to this young lady, then...?... … …

27 year old Venetia Stanley probably had more sense than the 62 year old PM: she informed him that she was to marry and could not see him again. Unfortunately, this event coincided with the Tory party's pressure to enter the government and simultaneously get their revenge on Churchill who had previously deserted them for the Liberals. Thus when Asquith should have been defending his government and his friends, he was distracted by the loss of his beloved female companion.

[details from Sir Martin Gilbert as related in the chapter 'Footnote to History' in Steve Newman's book 'Gallipoli Then and Now']

regards

Michael

[Antonia G]

Hallo Michael

Thanks for the fascinating detail - it's why I love this forum!

Apologies - (I blame it on the new varifocals, which the optician SWORE were going to make my life so much easier ....); I should have counted up. Aunt Nellie's annotations were unusually irregular for this photo so it took a while to work out which name belonged to who (apart from Matron, Lady Murray and Mr Asquith, who were glaringly obvious).

After more careful scrutiny, using a magnifying glass this time, I owe apologies to M Scott, who I somehow put down as M Beatty. In fact I think I've committed a major faux pas as it's probably Lady Margaret Scott, eldest daughter to the Duke of Buccleuch. And I think Aunt Nellie does appear: from comparisons to other photos that must be her between Marion Streatfeild (from her signature that is the correct spelling) and Captain Kirkwood. I have double checked against the photo originally posted on this forum, and it's definitely the same line-up (and Miss Murray still looks cheesed off, poor girl).

I did wonder - is there any significance that some have the Red Cross on their aprons and others don't?

Best wishes,

Antonia

[michaeldr]

Antonia,

 

I'm afraid that I cannot help with the various uniforms worn by the nurses shown in the photograph.

 

Regarding your spectacles; my own experience with these is not good at all; I am now fairly used to them, but in my case it has taken years rather than months.

The world has gone curved at the edges and going down stairs with them is an act of suicide.

I have parked the same car in the same space for 10+ years and when trying to do so in these glasses, I found that a previously stationery iron post moved, with somewhat disastrous consequences for the car's rear wing.

with best regards

Michael

[Sue Light]

Although the hospital was originally an independent unit, after June 1916 it came under the authority of the Joint War Committee, otherwise it would not have been allowed to continue within the British sector, although Lady Murray carried on putting up the money. Because we know the identity of the hospital the uniforms are clear cut. The women with the darker sleeves and large floaty hats are trained nurses, though not possible to say exactly how well trained - so the first three in the back row, counting from our left, and then one further along the line. Matron was, I believe, a Miss Jones, and I think would have been wearing navy blue, with the same large hat. Lady Murray was not a nurse, and her title was Directrice, but she paid the money and could wear more or less what she liked, and she obviously liked to dress as a nurse. All the other women with the handkerchief hats tied at the back are VADs. The wearing of the red cross on the aprons cannot really be taken as significant at all. Some units only allowed the red cross after a certain period of time - say a year or so - but some women wore them right from the beginning. As the war progressed and all things became in short supply they were often omitted simply as an economy. By that time there was a system of 'stripes' worn on VAD uniform to signify length of service.

Sue

[michaeldr]

Antonia,

Sue Light has very kindly replied on the other thread

As this one seems to be suffering from gremlins and the links etc do not work

I have copied Sue's reply below

quote:

Although the hospital was originally an independent unit, after June 1916 it came under the authority of the Joint War Committee, otherwise it would not have been allowed to continue within the British sector, although Lady Murray carried on putting up the money. Because we know the identity of the hospital the uniforms are clear cut. The women with the darker sleeves and large floaty hats are trained nurses, though not possible to say exactly how well trained - so the first three in the back row, counting from our left, and then one further along the line. Matron was, I believe, a Miss Jones, and I think would have been wearing navy blue, with the same large hat. Lady Murray was not a nurse, and her title was Directrice, but she paid the money and could wear more or less what she liked, and she obviously liked to dress as a nurse. All the other women with the handkerchief hats tied at the back are VADs. The wearing of the red cross on the aprons cannot really be taken as significant at all. Some units only allowed the red cross after a certain period of time - say a year or so - but some women wore them right from the beginning. As the war progressed and all things became in short supply they were often omitted simply as an economy. By that time there was a system of 'stripes' worn on VAD uniform to signify length of service.

Sue

Sue, Many thanks for your help here

regards, Michael

[michaeldr]

Sue,

Very many thanks for your prompt and full reply on this

I have taken the liberty of copying your reply onto the other thread

Thanks again

Michael

[Antonia G]

Very many thanks to both Michael and Sue for their help, I continue to be astonished at the knowledge and generosity on this site! It was puzzling me that the red crosses appear and disappear throughout the album! I have started on scanning the whole thing as I hope it will be of interest to others, but you'll have to bear with me as the pages are bigger than my A4 scanner so each one has to be done twice and then 'glued' together - and that's before doing some rescue work on the more faded bits.

Best wishes,

Antonia

[michaeldr]

Antonia,

If you choose to share them here on the GWF then I shall be very interested, as, I should think, will others

with best regards

Michael

[Kitty VAD]

Although sometimes not having a Red Cross on your apron denoted the wearer as 'Special Military probationer' this applied to my G-g-mother who completed a years training before leaving for France.

Lovely photo!

K

[cassie]

Can anyone identify this uniform please.

Cassie(Gill)

[Sue Light]

I don't think there's anything significant there that can be used to come to any conclusion, but maybe more likely to be a civil hospital nurse. Do you know her name or the approximate date of the photo?

Sue

[cassie]

Hi Sue

Her name was Sarah Ann Allott I know she served in France and survived the war. She was born in 1894 just outside Barnsley South Yorkshire in a small hamlet called Hood Hill or sometimes it s Harley. It is possible that she was a civil nurse as I have just got to a place in her brothers war diary where he mentionsmeeting a lady who had trained with his sister Sally at Sheffield.