Pte 12234 Harry Jones, 3rd Bn Cheshire Regiment

[David_Underdown]

Hello all,

I've been doing some work with user CCCBRROH into some of the names recorded on the Central Council for Church Bell Ringers' Great War Roll of Honour. The one I've managed to find out about is Pte 12234 Harry Jones, 3rd Bn Cheshire Regiment. I've written him up in detail at http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.u...aker%2C_soldier, and also outlined the contents of his medal card, and records in WO363 and WO364 (fortunately both survive in his case) at http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.u...aker%2C_soldier

In brief, he enlisted in the Special Reserve on 28 October 1914, aged 41 and 4 months. From 3rd Bn Cheshires he was assigned to 1st Garrison Battalion (Cheshires) in Gibraltar, until he was posted to 10 Bn in July/August 1917. He went sick in Novmber 1918, and was diagnosed with nephritis, he was evacauted to war hospital in Sheffield, via Calais. He was officially re-posted to 3rd Bn in February 1918. He had been before a medical board in late January 1918 which rated him 20% disabled due to the infection he had contracted on active service. In April he was transferred to Army Reserve Class W, and employed by Mssrs Williams & Garmon in Chester (presumed to be his pre-war employers). He soon fell ill again and was unable to work. He was admitted to the Chester War Hospital at Hoole in July 1918, and a further medical board in August rated him 60% disabled, attributable to war service. He was discharged and awarded a pension. He died on 15 November 1918 according to the Ministyr of Pensions note in his file. The army subsequently paid £5 towards his funeral expenses, as his death was attributed to his service. His wife then also received a pension for herself and their 4 children.

He seems to be recorded on the Chester War Memorial in the Town Hall, and is presumed to be the H Jones, Chester recorded on the CCCBR roll, but does not seem to be recorded by CWGC . I've found the index entry for his death certificate, but haven't yet tried actually ordering it. I presume he's buried in Chester, but haven't been able to establish where yet.

David

[John_Hartley]

David

Welcome to the Forum. On the face of it, I agree that he appears to be uncommemorated by CWGC and should be, as his death appears to be attributable to service.

I'm a volunteer with the In From from the Cold Project and we can assist you with a submission to CWGC to rectify this, if you wish. Our main project is searching for men who died whilst still serving in the forces and our costs of obtaining death certificates in these cases are reimbursed by the Ministry of Defence. However, we are not funded for deaths after discharge.

If the evidence from his service papers (regarding date, cause of death and that it is attibuted to service) is clear cut, then this may be sufficient in itself, although it may well be preferable to obtain the death certificate as "gold standard" evidence.

We may have already come across this chap and CWGC has him "in progress". I'll draw one of my colleague's attention to the thread and see what's what.

John

[Terry Denham]

If his service records gives a reason for his discharge and his pension papers bear this out, you have half the story. However, as a post discharge case, you also need to know the exact cause of death and be able to link this to his cause of discharge or to his service in some way.

You will need the death certificate for this.

[David_Underdown]

The death certificate would still be required, even with letters on file such as:

[to HQ Western Command]

I beg to submit the attached correspondence and applicaiton of for grant towards Fuenral Expenses for the above Discharged Soldier, for the favour of your consideration and authority for payment.

Pte. Jones was discharged from the Service on 9-8-18 under para. 392 XVI K.R. Disability V.D.H

[from Infantry Records Centre No 2, Riding School, Shrewsbury]

[from HQ Western Command]

Reference your Ches1/ADS/1062/1 of the 6th inst, the Brigadier-General i/c Administration Western Command approves of the sum of £5.0.0 (Five pounds) as a cahrge against the public-authority War Office letter 45/B.F./360 A.G.4a dated 13th October 1916, towards the funeral expenses of the later No. 12234 Private Harry Jones, Cheshire Regiment.

and full details of the pension subsequently paid to his wife?

The work I've been doing has identified a further 3 cases with similar levels of evidence to this one:

Lynn, William Stanley, Private 11891, Lincolnshire Regiment, whose MIC is at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...Edoc_Id=3930697 showing issue of Silver War Badge and discharge. Pension record http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=Vi...&pid=506367 attributes discharge on 29 August 1917 to TB contracted on active service, rated totally disabled. Records death on 2 February 1918 - I haven't been able to trace the death certificate via FreeBMD though.

Drew, Gilbert Victor, Private 2008 West Somerset Yeomanry/30092 Somerset Light Infantry, whose MIC is at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...Edoc_Id=2846661. Pension record http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=Vi...&pid=258121 Discharged 3 February 1917, no longer physically fit for war service. Developed diabetes on active service. Died Jul-Spe quarter 1917 http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information....xUZA&scan=1

Barrick, George Henry, Private 45047 Suffol Regiment/474633 Labour Corps, whose MIC is at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...Edoc_Id=1325903. Pension record http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=Vi...=&pid=78018. Developed leukaemia on active service (considered aggravated by service), discharged as a result on 9 April 1918, rated 100% disabled. Died 11 June 1918.

I've also looked into Sedley Collins, see http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.u...=Sedley_Collins, in this case it seems only the MIC survives, which notes the issue of a Silver War Badge. I can see there's no hope except for getting hold of the death certificate in this case, and even then we don't know precisely why he was discharged in the first place.

Does it make any difference if cases are submitted en bloc, or is at as easy to do them one at a time?

[Terry Denham]

You are right in that the DC is needed. They may all have died by falling down stairs!

They are better submitted individually.

[chrisharley9]

DC ref for Lynn

William S Lynn aged 21 Q1 Bourne 7a 421

Chris

[David_Underdown]

Thanks,

Might as well add the one I found yesterday as well:

Lloyd, Sidney C, 12241 Gloucestershire Regiment. MIC http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...Edoc_Id=3881778 Has a pensions record which states his right foot was amputated following a shell wound near Ypres, 1 March 1917. Discharged after having a artifical limb fitted at Welsh Metropolitan War Hospital, Whitchurch. Died I think 4th quarter 1918 at Walsall. Name seems to vary between Sidney, in MIC, pension record and 1911 census; and Sydney in 1901 census, on death cert (unless someone can find an alternative, I could 't find anything likely under Sidney on FreeBMD) and on Clehonger War Memorial

[chrisharley9]

Found him

Lloyd - Sydney C aged 28 Q4 Walsall 6b 1564

Chris

[David_Underdown]

I've now finally got hold of the death certificate for Harry Jones.

The causes of death are given as morbus cordis and syncope. The first from a cursory google seems to be a fairly general term for heart disease, the second, simply loss of consciousness. His previous heart problems had been attributed to active service however. Is this enough?

David

[chrisharley9]

David

submit all of the relevant docs thru to Terry Denham - you mention in your write up VDH (valular disease of the heart) so it looks good to me - I have checked Overleigh Cemetery Chester & there is no record of him being buried there

Chris

[Northern Soul]

I have checked Overleigh Cemetery Chester & there is no record of him being buried there

You aren't trying hard enough Mr. Harley. We don't want him being commemorated on the Brookwood 1914-18 Memorial now, do we?

David - great work in pursuing these men's rightful commemoration, by the way.

Andy.

[chrisharley9]

Andy

I dont want to make Brookwood totally redundant you know

Chris

[chrisharley9]

David

what does the DC say with regard to location of death & any NOK details please

Chris

[David_Underdown]

Died in Chester Royal Infirmary. Death registered by his widow, Ann, their address ties up with the addresses given in his service record, and census records.

[David_Underdown]

Had a thought about this last night. His mother, Elizabeth, seems to have died between the 1891 and 1901 Census. Even though her approximate age can be established from the census records, I can't tell which of the 2 or 3 possibles from the death indices would actually be her given it's such a common name.

However, the family then lived in the Handbridge area of Chester. The reason I got involved in researching Harry is that he is believed to be the Harry Jones listed on the Central Council for Church Bell Ringers Roll of Honour. He may well have rung at St Mary's Without, Handbridge, but having doen some investigation I see that this church wasn't built until the 1880s, so I guess it's unlikely that there were ever any burials in the churchyard. However, the general thought I had that maybe he was buried in the same graveyard as his mother could still be correct. From a quick check of the 1911 census, it would appear his father had also died by 1911, so in fact maybe all three are in the same graveyard.

[chrisharley9]

David

received yesterday from Chester archives

Thank you for your email of 18 November.

I first of all checked the catalogue of records which we hold for the Chester Royal infirmary but there was no Register of Deaths or Register of In Patients which might have included details of Harry Jones.

Although you had mentioned that no grave for Harry Jones had been identified at Overleigh, I still thought this was the most likely place he would have been buried as very few burials took place in Chester's churchyards once the Municipal Cemetery opened in 1851. There is no entry for Harry Jones in the index to the Overleigh Cemetery records which can be found at our Cheshire West website. However, because of the way the registers were compiled in the early 20th century, there is a section of them which does not appear in the index. This is because the web indexes search on date of death and for a period which includes 1918, only the date of interment was listed in the register.

I checked the original cemetery register for 1918 and found that a Henry Jones was buried at Overleigh 21 November 1918. No date of death was given but he was aged 45 and his address was 2 Stanley Palace, Chester. He was buried in grave G4949 in consecrated ground.

I then checked with the Chester Military Museum to see whether his name appeared on their Roll of Honour, but it did not. They did confirm however that the 3rd battalion was a reserve regiment of former soldiers who, amongst other things, had guarded Birkenhead docks.

Finally I checked at both www.cheshirebmd.org.uk and www.freebmd.org and found that Henry Jones' death had been registered December quarter of 1918, which would fit in with a death occurring in November.

The cheshirebmd reference number is CHC/1/60. I contacted the Cheshire West Register Office and they were kind enough to check this certificate for me. It proved to be that of 45 year old Henry Jones, an ex soldier who died at the Royal infirmary 15 Nov 1918. This ties in with the Overleigh burial 21 November and I believe you have found your private Jones' grave - G4949.

If you require a copy of the cemetery register to combine with the death certificate a copy will cost £2.50 + 45p postage and can be ordered through our secure eshop at our website: http://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/leisure_and...ord_office.aspx

[David_Underdown]

Thanks Chris,

Looks like it must be him, though the address doesn't quite match up - all the other sources have 2 Bishop Lloyd's Place. I know it's sometimes been called Bishop Lloyd's Palace, maybe Stanley Palace is a further alternative name.

Not sure if Terry's done the biz with paperwork yet, so I'll leave getting a copy certificate unless CWGC actually need it later on.

[chrisharley9]

David

I will forward the e mail to Terry

Chris

[David_Underdown]

Jones was added to the CWGC list today. See Latest additions to CWGC 30 March 2010

I've also just ordered DCs for four of the other men mentioned in this thread.

[chrisharley9]

David

when you get the DCs let me have the details & I will do a grave search for you

Chris

[David_Underdown]

Thanks Chris,

Lynn we already know is buried in the right in a corner of the churchyard at Edenham, Lincs, and the gravestone also incorporates a memorial to his brother Walter Thomas, who is commemorated by CWGC on the Vis-en-Artois memorial (http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1746228). The stone is in very poor condition, with the shaft of the cross surmounting the grave snapped in two.

Drew is probably in the graveyard at Dinder, Somerset, alongside his parents, though this hasn't been absolutely confirmed.

[ATNOMIS]

Thanks Chris,

Lynn we already know is buried in the right in a corner of the churchyard at Edenham, Lincs, and the gravestone also incorporates a memorial to his brother Walter Thomas, who is commemorated by CWGC on the Vis-en-Artois memorial (http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1746228). The stone is in very poor condition, with the shaft of the cross surmounting the grave snapped in two.

Drew is probably in the graveyard at Dinder, Somerset, alongside his parents, though this hasn't been absolutely confirmed.

David

Do you wish me to take a picture of this Grave???

Is he defo in Overleigh?

I live 2 mins away.. no problem with visit.

Cheers

[David_Underdown]

Jones is definitely buried in Overleigh G4949, see http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/recordoffice/Ov...spx?RowId=43651 though I'm not clear if it's the older or newer part of the cemetery.

It would be great if you could get a photo - frustratingly I'm going to be in Chester the weekend after Easter, but a full programme of rehearsals and services in the cathedral means I'm not going to have time to go over there myself. Doing a bit of googling the other day I discovered that someone has photographed the cemetery plans from the record office and put them online - which may be useful.

[David_Underdown]

Received the other death certificates yesterday.

Drew and Lynn are open and shut cases. Drew's cause of death is given as 1) Diabetes mellitus 2) coma. Lynn as phthisis, which is simply Greek for consumption, so ties up with the TB he contracted.

Barrick the cause of death is given as abdominal sarcoma, rather than leukaemia, but it woul dbe extremely hard luck if he developed 2 unrelated cancers in such a short time. It's a while since I looked over the records, so I need to do that later to remind myself exactly what they say.

Lloyd simply got the (Spanish) Flu though, so no dice on him.

[David_Underdown]

On reviewing Barrick's record again it does seem to stack up, his medical report mentions a tumour in the abdomen and some Wikipedia research suggests Myeloid sarcoma is one way Acute myeloid leukaemia can develop.