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Remembered Today:

McCudden


Jonathan Saunders

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According to his obituary in the local newspaper, William served as a pilot on the Western Front before returning to the UK to take up a pilot-instructor role at Fort Grange Military Aerodrome, near Gosport in April 1915. He had been in this role just two weeks before the accident happened. Newspapers did make mistakes in their reporting and I just want to flag up that I don’t recall having read William served in France from any other sources, or that he had any skirmishes in the air, which you would expect from a pilot serving on the WF for several months.

I'm not sure if you have seen his MIC, but William McCudden qualified for the 1914 Star, having gone to France with 3 Squadron RFC in August 1914.

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I'm not sure if you have seen his MIC, but William McCudden qualified for the 1914 Star, having gone to France with 3 Squadron RFC in August 1914.

As I recall William (Bill) was assigned to the 3 Sqn "land" Transport in August 1914 - there being more pilots than aeroplanes at this stage. His younger brother Jimmy had more opportunities to fly as an Observer than Bill had to fly as a pilot during his time with 3 Sqn in F&F.

Regards,

Jon S

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Hi Jon,

Knowing your interest in the McCudden family, I was just wondering to myself if you had been to the IWM North? Only I was there a few weeks back and there was some info on them. In fact just doing a search on that site, brings up a portrait of J B McCudden. I did think of you whilst there - but then forgot to say anything, until I saw this thread this morning!

Sorry all a bit boring I know - but just wanted to let you know.

Alie.

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Hi Jon,

I have only just found this thread and found it very informative. In one of your first entries you said that when William Henry McCullen died on 5th July 1920 his body was returned to Chatham for a military funeral and he was interred in the grave of his eldest son, William, in the Roman Catholic part of the Palmerston Road cemetery, and that William had returned to Kent just a couple of weeks before and visited his son’s grave having had a memorial erected over it to his sons, William, James and Jack and his son-in-law, Arthur Scott Spears, who had been killed in the HMS Princess Irene disaster in May 1915.

Did this memorial replace the original CWGC headstones of is it a new memorial. I looked up the CGWC details but they just say General Locality-unspecified.

Derek.

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Hi Jon,

Knowing your interest in the McCudden family, I was just wondering to myself if you had been to the IWM North? Only I was there a few weeks back and there was some info on them. In fact just doing a search on that site, brings up a portrait of J B McCudden. I did think of you whilst there - but then forgot to say anything, until I saw this thread this morning!

Sorry all a bit boring I know - but just wanted to let you know.

Alie.

Hi Alie, I havent seen your name on the Forum much lately, which is always a disappointment :(

Thanks for the suggestion - I have a copy of the half length painting on my shelf. I think its by Orpen - its not necessarily the most flattering but it does show Jimmy's youth.

I havent been to the IWM North - I did a thread on this a year or so ago and asked if it was worth travelling up to - I formed the opinion from the answers that it wasnt worth making a special trip to visit. Have you been to Hendon by the way? They have the first page of Jimmy's manuscript of Five Years in the RFC on show in the Grahame White Museum.

I havent been to the PRO much this year but do need to go again soon. Hope to see you there.

Jon S

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Hi Jon,

I have only just found this thread and found it very informative. In one of your first entries you said that when William Henry McCullen died on 5th July 1920 his body was returned to Chatham for a military funeral and he was interred in the grave of his eldest son, William, in the Roman Catholic part of the Palmerston Road cemetery, and that William had returned to Kent just a couple of weeks before and visited his son’s grave having had a memorial erected over it to his sons, William, James and Jack and his son-in-law, Arthur Scott Spears, who had been killed in the HMS Princess Irene disaster in May 1915.

Did this memorial replace the original CWGC headstones of is it a new memorial. I looked up the CGWC details but they just say General Locality-unspecified.

Derek.

Derek - if you want to visit the cemetery and we can find a mutual time I would be happy to show you where it is. I dont know if there was ever an original CWGC headstone as such. When Bill died the family were still "ordinary working class" if that is the right phrase. Their fame came later. If the grave was marked then I expect Bill's grave probably had a wooden cross.

I think the current Memorial was probably the one that the father visited in 1920. It is reasonably substantial so I expect it was either paid out of war gratuities that fell to the family or by a single or group of sympathisers. It wouldnt surprise me if Trenchard didnt pay some of it himself or from a special fund held by the RAF. Trenchard obviously tried to help the family by giving the youngest brother a cadetship and then an apprenticeship with the Royal Aircraft Factory.

As I recall, there is nothing in the local council files held on McCudden that comment on the Memorial and I was unable to find anything in the local papers either.

Regards,

Jon S

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Hello Derek,

I feel justified in replying to your query, since for 14 years now I have been maintaining the grave of William McCudden. When I first found it , it was in poor order. The grave is in the old cemetery off of Palmerstone Road, Chatham. There is a new cemetery on the other side of the same road. The cemetery is easy to find as it is also ajacent to the main Chatham / Maidstone Road, A229. When searching for it I was looking for a Traditional CWGC headstone but it a'int. No part of it has the usual headstone. It has a large cross, of quality, with an officers belt and sword wrapped around the cross. There is a lot of writing all around the 4 sides to the base. The words remembering his brothers, father and his brother -in- law. The one thing I would like to know is, did James McCudden ever visit his brothers grave? Would he have been allowed the time off for the funeral? Likely he would have. I have always had an interest in the McCudden's, have visited the graves of all 3 brothers and to top the lot one of my friends is a McCudden!

Regards Mike Jones

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Mike first of all - I have noticed your handy work. I havent visited for a year or so but it was obvious that someone had been looking after it. I have just adopted a BoB pilot grave at Rainham so perhaps you can give me some tips! Jimmy didnt come home for the funeral - he was still with 3 Sqn in F&F. However he did return to the family home then at Sheerness, in early 1916 I think, when he had leave around the time of his pilot training. He also spent time instructing at Joyce Green Aerodrome in Dartford. Bill was his hero and mentor. I would imagine when he had the chance the first thing Jimmy did was visit his brother's grave.

If you didnt see my McCudden article in Bygone Kent a couple of years ago send me your email address and I will send you a copy. It might not contain anything new for you but the photos are good.

I hope this helps.

Jon

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Are we talking about this portrait? If so then yes, it is by William Orpen.

Freddy thats a bit large. You might come a cropper with our Moderators. But yes that is the painting. Orpen painted Rhys-Davids at the same time I think.

I know they have the notebooks but I have never been able to view them - I have enquired but its a day off work and I just havent got around to it yet.

Jon

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Freddy thats a bit large. You might come a cropper with our Moderators. But yes that is the painting. Orpen painted Rhys-Davids at the same time I think.

I know they have the notebooks but I have never been able to view them - I have enquired but its a day off work and I just havent got around to it yet.

Jon

Jon,

It's under 100kb, hence the quality... I don't know it's all a bit confusing for me. I took it down just in case. I thought by large they meant with regards to file size...

The Rhys Davids' portrait by Orpen was on display (taking up most of the cabinet) on the lower level of the IWM London last time I looked... He painted Hoidge too (twice), who he was friends with. When he gave a copy of his book to him he dedicated it to Rhys Davids.

The regard Jim had for his brother was returned was it not? What's that quote when the war broke out? "You watch Jim will come out of this with a VC" or something similar?

Freddy

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There was a very deep affection between them. Can you send me your email via members and I will send you my article - its on the family rather than the war exploits - obviously bits overlap.

I go to the IWM in London regularly (well twice a year probably) - and I have never bloody seen that painting!

Also I dont recall that quote but that might be my memory. Where did you get it from?

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There was a very deep affection between them. Can you send me your email via members and I will send you my article - its on the family rather than the war exploits - obviously bits overlap.

I go to the IWM in London regularly (well twice a year probably) - and I have never bloody seen that painting!

Also I dont recall that quote but that might be my memory. Where did you get it from?

If I've not completely lost my mind the portrait of ARD is at the back of the cabinet behind a lot of other stuff, including a windshield of McCudden's, although this was a while ago...

The quote is from a letter William sent home when war was declared... no clue if it has ever been published.. I'll PM you the details with the email... Was it you that I was having the email exchange re: Teddie O'Neill with about a year ago?

Freddy

Problem solved....

post-18928-1182950286.jpg

And this is Rhys Davids portrait... It's funny you saying that you didn't think Jim's was flattering, Rhys Davids was pretty diplomatic about his comments on his.

post-18928-1182950686.jpg

And while we're at it Hoidge....

post-18928-1182950725.jpg

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I know the cabinet - cant recall if ARD portrait is in there but pretty sure Jimmy's isnt.

If I'm right, the WW1 gallery at Lambeth only has limited cabinets on the air war, maybe only one when i went? It has the RD portrait, a windshield of Jim's a montage of aces and possibly something to do with Albert Ball but I haven't looked recently... we couldn't actually see the windshield anywere in there either although ithere was label so it may well have been removed...

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If I'm right, the WW1 gallery at Lambeth only has limited cabinets on the air war, maybe only one when i went? It has the RD portrait, a windshield of Jim's a montage of aces and possibly something to do with Albert Ball but I haven't looked recently... we couldn't actually see the windshield anywere in there either although ithere was label so it may well have been removed...

I can send you a photo of the windshield!! From memory it had Jimmy's flying helmet, his "maternity" tunic and was tehre a gaunlet too?

These are in the small cabinet. There is a larger WW1 airwar cabinet in the same rectangle.

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I can send you a photo of the windshield!! From memory it had Jimmy's flying helmet, his "maternity" tunic and was there a gaunlet too?

These are in the small cabinet. There is a larger WW1 airwar cabinet in the same rectangle.

Would love to see the windsheild! Maybe they were polishing it when I went :ph34r:

The larger one is full of guns and plane models right? The small one is the sort of "pilot" cabinet... That's right the tunic... Jim was only little wasn't he! (Not as small as Nelson though, his dress coat is only viable for deranged size 0 "celebrities"!!) Knowing his affiliation with certain dancing girls I always wonder if he ever met my great grandmother who was 1 year younger and a tiller girl in the west end at the time...

Jim that is of course... not Lord Nelson :blink:

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Would love to see the windsheild! Maybe they were polishing it when I went :ph34r:

The larger one is full of guns and plane models right? The small one is the sort of "pilot" cabinet... That's right the tunic... Jim was only little wasn't he! (Not as small as Nelson though, his dress coat is only viable for deranged size 0 "celebrities"!!) Knowing his affiliation with certain dancing girls I always wonder if he ever met my great grandmother who was 1 year younger and a tiller girl in the west end at the time...

Jim that is of course... not Lord Nelson :blink:

I could easily fit into Jimmy's tunic ... might not be able to do it up. Think I could get into Nelson's Undress Coast as well. You should be careful :D

Yes the larger one is full of guns amongst other things and has a (damaged?) model of Jimmy's SE5a.

Oh if only your Great Grandmother had been called Teddie O'Neill it would solve the msytery. There was a chap on ebay a couple of years ago who was selling the Orpen prints of Jimmy and ARD and he said they had been his Grandmother's who had been a West End dancing girl and one of these men was an old flame of hers. Allegedly. And allegedly he didnt know who they were of. So I sent him an email asking if her stage name had been O'Neill. Regrettably not.

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I could easily fit into Jimmy's tunic ... might not be able to do it up. Think I could get into Nelson's Undress Coast as well. You should be careful :D

Yes the larger one is full of guns amongst other things and has a (damaged?) model of Jimmy's SE5a.

Oh if only your Great Grandmother had been called Teddie O'Neill it would solve the msytery. There was a chap on ebay a couple of years ago who was selling the Orpen prints of Jimmy and ARD and he said they had been his Grandmother's who had been a West End dancing girl and one of these men was an old flame of hers. Allegedly. And allegedly he didnt know who they were of. So I sent him an email asking if her stage name had been O'Neill. Regrettably not.

Jim was athletic though wasn't he... I'm short so I'm not making any judgements on anyone else's stature lol... Nelson however... I defy anybody other than Posh Spice to get into that dress coat... it's not his height that's the issue... the admiral must have had a 18 inch waist... I hate him for it lol...

Sadly her name was Doris... and she dosen't fit the blond comment either (That is right isn't it for Teddie?) It sounds as if Jim may have known the West End chorus girls as a collective rather well :wub: From what I gather Doris was rather badly behaved, rather attractive and completely unattached throughout the war so she must have had a great time... The more I try and dig Teddie out the more frustrated I get!!

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Yes Jimmy was athletic – he was a very competitive schoolboy in sports. Reminds me of myself when I was younger. Was Nelson really that small? I seem to remember being surprised by the waist of his trousers being wider than I had expected but it has been a few years since I was last at the NMM.

To be honest ... Good for Doris! I hope she had a bloody good time. But it would be great to find her on the same bill as Teddie.

I understand the frustration too. I go in cycles of becoming obsessed with finding out who she was.

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Yes Jimmy was athletic – he was a very competitive schoolboy in sports. Reminds me of myself when I was younger. Was Nelson really that small? I seem to remember being surprised by the waist of his trousers being wider than I had expected but it has been a few years since I was last at the NMM.

To be honest ... Good for Doris! I hope she had a bloody good time. But it would be great to find her on the same bill as Teddie.

I understand the frustration too. I go in cycles of becoming obsessed with finding out who she was.

I remember reading something about him working out a lot somewhere too, have you seen the newspaper account by one of his primary school teachers after he died? She def. mentioned the obsession with his big "bruvver" and a couple of other nice bits.

Doris is indeed to be admired, she had a far better time than her future husband, a 16 year old being gassed somewhere on the western front... Re: the Admiral I'm only going on the coat on the Victory... little or not he's a legend... the story about him refusing to be buried at Westminster or wherever because he had researched it and it was likely to one day subside sold me on his greatness.

Peridodic obsessions with Teddie def. catching... Maybe we should try and get a vote on the board here as to what it might have been short for... I tried Edwina and Theodora amongst others... but then we are assuming that it was actually derived from her name and not a completely random name she pulled out of a hat. ARGGGGGGHHHHH here we go... I'm hooked on it again... :blink:

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Peridodic obsessions with Teddie def. catching... Maybe we should try and get a vote on the board here as to what it might have been short for... I tried Edwina and Theodora amongst others... but then we are assuming that it was actually derived from her name and not a completely random name she pulled out of a hat. ARGGGGGGHHHHH here we go... I'm hooked on it again... :blink:

I am so pleased my Teddie obsession is shared by someone else. It feels like I am sharing (actually off loading half the) the pain and frustration of not being able to positively identify her. You have cheered me up no end!

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Glad to be of service :wacko:

I've got it narrowed to 212 possibilities... I can actaully get it down to about 30, but that's if I want to start off small and assume that she was in the same mould as my GGmother given they had the same occupation (for the age, Local girl etc) It might be worth ruling out those thirty before trying to tackle absolutely every possibility... I've got the name of a theatre Jim mentions a couple of times to so perhaps as another starting point it might be worth digging up everything possible on that one particular venue to see if she turns up...

You do realise this cements us as the founder members of TANA (Teddie addicts not-so anonymous) :ph34r:

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You do realise this cements us as the founder members of TANA (Teddie addicts not-so anonymous) :ph34r:

I have amended my sign-off accordingly :D

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Ditto :blink:

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This Teddie thread sounds interesting. Was it because she wore a Teddie?

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