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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

McCudden


Jonathan Saunders

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Hi Sidcupman,

By coincidence I was relaying the von Richthofen - McCudden story to a group of friends when visiting the grave of Tom Rees at Villers-Plouich a couple of days ago. Rees was the observer in the first plane that Von Richthofen shot down.

In short and I am no expert on Air War matters, evidence suggests a claim made by von Richthofen and confirmed by two German AA batteries, was in fact a duel with Jimmy McCudden, in which McCudden's gun jammed and he decided to go into a nose spin from 9000 ft down to 800 ft to shake of his opponent.

If it was McCudden that von Richthofen had "shot down" then in fact he did not even hit the Great Man with a single round. McCudden reported the incident and as I recall he mentions it in his autobiography. Von Richthofen had followed down his opponent to 1000 ft and then pulled off as he then came under attack from British AA guns. As far as he was concerned his opponent had been out of control and was going to surely crash and this presumably was the same conclusion the German AA gun crew came to without having actually seen the Allied plane crash.

According to the authors of UNDER THE GUNS OF THE RED BARON who have researched Allied planes lost that day - 27 Dec 1916 - the only viable explanation for Von Richthofen 15th victim was that he had been mistaken in thinking he had shot down the British plane and that it was in fact Jimmy McCudden that he had been dueling with.

As far as I am aware it hasnt been debated on this Forum.

Incidently I was at St. Souplet Cemetery yesterday where Jack McCudden is buried.

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It seems it wasn't only the Germans who thought that Sgt McCudden was shot down that day. I just had a look at 'Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps' and saw that the fight is described in a couple of paragraphs. After landing, McCudden was approached by Captain Hill, who said "You here? Why, [Captain Harold] Payn has just said that you went down out of control over Hunland, with a fat Hun in attendance."

McCudden replied "Yes, so I did; that is why I am here."

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By coincidence I was relaying the von Richthofen - McCudden story to a group of friends when visiting the grave of Tom Rees at Villers-Plouich a couple of days ago. Rees was the observer in the first plane that Von Richthofen shot down.

Blimey Jon.......................it's less than a month ago that you were at Villers-Plouich when we stopped on the way to Verdun B) Was it Tom Rees' grave which specifically took you back to Villiers-Plouich?

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By coincidence I was relaying the von Richthofen - McCudden story to a group of friends when visiting the grave of Tom Rees at Villers-Plouich a couple of days ago.  Rees was the observer in the first plane that Von Richthofen shot down. 

Blimey Jon.......................it's less than a month ago that you were at Villers-Plouich when we stopped on the way to Verdun B) Was it Tom Rees' grave which specifically took you back to Villiers-Plouich?

Will,

I was in search of KWAK and coupled this with visiting the site of various actions in and around Cambrai including the Air War.

It was nice to be back that way!

Jon

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Can I just add for the attention of Alex Ravell who was keeping up with this thread earlier.

Alex your new email address is working outwardly because I have had 4 emails from you regrading your change of address. However I am not sure your inbox is working as two of these emails have been received since I responded to your new address!

Regards,

Jon

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I was in search of KWAK and coupled this with visiting the site of various actions in and around Cambrai including the Air War.

It was nice to be back that way!

Jon

Nuff Said :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Signals,

Very interesting. I visited McCudden's grave in 2001 as he is buried in the same cemetery as Australia's highest scoring fighter pilot Captain R A Little DSO* DSC*(as is GENERALLY accepted - myself and many others believe Major R S Dallas to have scored higher). Wavans is a very small cemetery 14 km NW of Doullens and 32 km NE of Abbeville. It contains 43 Commonwealth burials and one German war grave.

In the website "Silent Cities" (www.silentcities.co.uk), there is a short section on Wavans, and in there, the section on J T B McCudden mentions

2/Lt J A McCudden's burial place in St. Souplet Britsh Cemetery, which shows a picture of his grave and of J A McCudden and provides the following information:

"McCUDDEN, 2/Lt John Anthony. M.C. 84th Sqdn. Royal Flying Corps. Died 18th March, 1918. Age 20. Son of Amelia Emma McCudden, of "Pitlochry," 37, Benton Rd., Kingston-on-Thames, and the late William Henry McCudden. III. D. 4. Brother J. T. B. McCudden VC buried in Wavans British Cemetery"

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Having just stummbled across this post for the first time i was taken by how well not only the research has been done but how once again the forum and the internet has facilitaed people gaining access to information that would other wise not have come there way.

Just wish that someone of family connection would stummble across my posts of Forestier-Walker and Snow :(

Good research and thanks for sharing it with us Jon and others. Not normally my bag but found this an interesting read as it encompassed all aspects not just the military.

regards

Arm.

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Thanks Arm - cheque is in the post :lol:

Steve - thats an interesting address you have come up with as Pitlochry is in Perthshire, Scotland and not Ireland - so was Perthshire the McCudden ancestral home I wonder.

Also if anyone gets a chance to visit the RE museum at Brompton Barracks (Gillingham) then the medal collection is worth the entrance fee alone. It includes all the McCudden family medals (excluding death plaques as I recall) and has some great family photos.

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Steve - thats an interesting address you have come up with as Pitlochry is in Perthshire, Scotland and not Ireland - so was Perthshire the McCudden ancestral home I wonder.

Signals,

I didn't "come up with it"...that's a copy and paste from "silent cities" site. Besides, it mentions that "Pitlochry" is in Kingston-on-Thames, so it is probably the name of their residence, possibly the ancestral village of his parents or of the builder of the house as you said.

Keep up the good work. Very pleasing to see someone doing original research.

Steve Drew

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  • 3 weeks later...

Arthur William Peter Spears - nephew of Jim McCudden

Arthur Spears was the son of Mary Amelia McCudden and Arthur Scott Spears. Arthur Scott Spears was one of the dockyard workers aboard HMS Princess Irene when she blew up off the Isle of Grain on 27 May 1915 and thus he never saw his son, also named Arthur, who was born in December 1915. At this stage the Spears and the McCudden's were living in Sheerness but by the end of the war Mary Spears is believed to have followed her parents to Surrey and then when she married -?- Cobley, she moved her family to Wanstead and Arthur attended the County High School.

Arthur joined the RAF in 1932 and upon completion of his apprenticeship was posted to teh same squadron where his eldest two uncles commenced their duties with teh RAF - 3 Squadron - at Kenley as a Fitter. In the mid-1930s Arthur served in the Middle-East and then in the Summer of 1939 was accepted for pilot training.

By the time Arthur had successfully completed of his pilot training WW2 was in progress and he was sent to the pilots pool for 12 Group and then was posted to 222 Squadron at Duxford. For a short time he flew Blenheims before the Squadron switched to Spitfires.

Arthur flew during the Battle of Britain and although I cannot find any record of him having shot down any enemy aircraft, he was shot down himself twice. The first was in combat during the Battle of Britain against a BF109 over RAF Eastchurch, Sheppey, an area well known to the McCudden's as well as the Spears.

In April 1941 when flying with 91 Squadron, Arthur was shot down by the German Ace, Adolf Galland. Arthur then spent a period in hospital with splinter wounds in his arms and legs and he subsequently lost his flying category. Although he later regained his flying category it is unclear whether he flew in combat again. Towards the end of 1941 he had been posted to Control Tower responsibilities at Croydon.

In October 1942 he was commissioned Pilot Officer, then 6 months latr Flying Officer. In October 1944 he was again promoted to Flight Lt. and commanded the Station Flight at Heston Aerodrome. Towards the end of the war he was responsible for flying various VIPs and then became personal pilot to AVM Wigglesworth.

Arthur remained with the RAF until December 1970, and retired in the rank of Squadron Leader, having been promoted in July 1954. In the post-war period and possibly being aware of his family connection to the RE's he had transferred to the Engineer Branch of the RAF. He died in September 1998.

As this now concludes my submissions on the McCuddens I will be sure to update with any new info that may arise and would be grateful if any PALS have further information on this family that they would share with me.

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Jon.............Nice way to round off the story...........Arthur had a hell of a career of 38 years service. I'm sure his uncle would have been proud.

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Signals

Thank you very much for sharing your excellent research with us all. It's greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Gareth

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have an update on the youngest of the brothers - Maurice Vincent McCudden.

Maurice went straight into the RFC rather than taking the Royal Engineers route in the same way as elder brothers, enlisting as a "Boy" around 1916.

Then to cut along story short, in 1920 he was accepted for pilot training, I think at the direct intervention of Trenchard who had somehow ensured the family would be able to cover any costs. However Maurice failed the medical due to a childhood head injury and it was then arranged he would be released from the service, and would be able to gain his pilot licence with the Royal Aircraft Factory/Establishment in a civilian role.

He then went on to become a very well respected test pilot, and I think he may have specialised in high altitude flying before I think ill health grounded him.

He also raced motorbikes (another McCudden family passion) at Brooklands. Then in 1933 he became gravely ill with abdominal problems and died shortly after an operation in 1934, aged just 33. He was buried in Kingston-upon-Thames and is commemorated on the family memorial at Chatham cemetery.

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  • 6 months later...

Great to see Jon's McCudden research in print in the latest edition of Bygone Kent, vol 26(1). A great story, extremely well told. Congratulations, Jon!

Gary

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Thanks Gary, thanks Robbie ... notoriety seems to follow me around :ph34r:

... although I hope you enjoyed this month's Bygone Kent

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Thanks Gary, thanks Robbie ... notoriety seems to follow me around :ph34r:

... although I hope you enjoyed this month's Bygone Kent

Hi Jon,

I hadn't heard of this magazine before gary's posting. Where does one get a copy?

Robbie

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Robbie its on general sale at selected bookshops in Kent - it is a monthly local history publication and has been going for 26 years so should be well known to a bookseer in Canterbury or Dover.

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Can I add that I think the July edition had a very :lol: good story about three Rainham (Kent) school teachers that left the school for the Western Front, two of them never to return. An excellent read if you can still get hold of a copy!

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Mr Saunders sir...........in print & famous............I lay prostrate at your feet................Seriously, nice one Jon..........I think the first round of drinks in Ypres this April are on you :rolleyes:

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Mr Saunders sir...........in print & famous............I lay prostrate at your feet................Seriously, nice one Jon..........I think the first round of drinks in Ypres this April are on you :rolleyes:

Will,

Whatever happens I am sure you will be behind me in the KWAK bar

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Mr Saunders sir...........in print & famous............I lay prostrate at your feet................Seriously, nice one Jon..........I think the first round of drinks in Ypres this April are on you  :rolleyes:

Will,

Whatever happens I am sure you will be behind me in the KWAK bar

:lol:

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