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Remembered Today:

Heading to Vimy & Passchendaele


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I'm visiting a number of cemeteries around Vimy and Passchendale from the 18 to 21 July and wonder in there are any requests for photos?

I'm going to:

Brandhoek New Mil.

Dochy Farm New Mil.

Lijssenthoek Mil.

Track "X"

Tyne Cot

Vlamertingne

White House

Cabaret Rouge

Sucrerie, Ablain-St Nazaire

Viller Station

Zouave Valley

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Just the usual request that you say G'Day to 2410 Cpl Ew Serls 44th Btn AIF in Tyne Cot please! Sucrerie cemetery at Albain is a really peaceful place and the views amazing.

Have a great visit.

Michelle

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Sean

I would appreciate a photograph of the following mans headstone if you have the time .

John Fletcher NICHOLSON Pioneer 101170 Royal Engineers KIA 31.7.1917

Buried Vlamertinghe New Military Cemetery, Grave reference VII A 16

I will pm you with my e-mail address.

Thanks

John

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Sean,

may I please request photos of the following Anglesey mens' gravestones, if you're going that way?-

Brandhoek New Military Cemetery No.3

Evans, E Driver 706871 RFA, 17 May 1918. Ref. III.B.12

Lijssenthoek Military Cemetary, Poperinghe

Feltham, J Sapper 6731 RE, 7 Sept 1915. Ref. III.B.33

Parry, J Private 39181 RWF, 8 June 1917. Ref. XV.I.10A

Williams, O Private 31354 RWF, 28 Aug 1916. Ref. IX.D.3

Williams, W Private 15000 RWF, 30 Jan 1916. Ref. IV.C.43

Vlamertinghe Military Cemetery

Greenhalgh, H. Sergeant 6039 RE, 12 March 1916. Ref. III.B.14

Please do not feel bound in any way to go for these if your schedule doesn't permit. Have a good and safe trip out there.

LST_164

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  • 3 weeks later...
Sean,

may I please request photos of the following Anglesey mens' gravestones, if you're going that way?-

Brandhoek New Military Cemetery No.3

Evans, E Driver 706871 RFA, 17 May 1918. Ref. III.B.12

Lijssenthoek Military Cemetary, Poperinghe

Feltham, J Sapper 6731 RE, 7 Sept 1915. Ref. III.B.33

Parry, J Private 39181 RWF, 8 June 1917. Ref. XV.I.10A

Williams, O Private 31354 RWF, 28 Aug 1916. Ref. IX.D.3

Williams, W Private 15000 RWF, 30 Jan 1916. Ref. IV.C.43

Vlamertinghe Military Cemetery

Greenhalgh, H. Sergeant 6039 RE, 12 March 1916. Ref. III.B.14

Please do not feel bound in any way to go for these if your schedule doesn't permit. Have a good and safe trip out there.

LST_164

I have your photos. There was some troule trying to get them, though, at Lijssenhoek as the plot number were wrong. Really wrong. Peltham appears to be #20, Parry #17, Williams O #36 and Williams W #10. Perhaps they´ve added to the rows since these names were first recorded or maybe they count from different sides?

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I have your photos. There was some troule trying to get them, though, at Lijssenhoek as the plot number were wrong. Really wrong. Peltham appears to be #20, Parry #17, Williams O #36 and Williams W #10. Perhaps they´ve added to the rows since these names were first recorded or maybe they count from different sides?

Sean,

glad you're back safely, but mortified that you had trouble finding the Lijssenthoek graves.

I had the information from a CWGC printout of Anglesey casualties and having checked this again, and cross-checked it today against the CWGC website, the references I gave should have been OK !

The cemetery plans online aren't as helpful as usual - only a rough location for plot, and no grave rows or min/max numbering shown.

Whatever happened, I'm very grateful for your perseverance and will PM you with my email details. Hope the rest of the trip went well.

LST_164

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Sean,

glad you're back safely, but mortified that you had trouble finding the Lijssenthoek graves.

I had the information from a CWGC printout of Anglesey casualties and having checked this again, and cross-checked it today against the CWGC website, the references I gave should have been OK !

The cemetery plans online aren't as helpful as usual - only a rough location for plot, and no grave rows or min/max numbering shown.

Whatever happened, I'm very grateful for your perseverance and will PM you with my email details. Hope the rest of the trip went well.

LST_164

No problem. The trip went very well. Some of the locations were in the most picturesque of spot, especially Villars Station among the yellow fields of canola (mustard?). Van Gogh couldn't have chosen a more perfect place.

The plot numbers you gave me also matched the register at the cemetery so it seems to be a CWGC problem. Maybe they can explain it?

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Sean

It appears that you have had a good trip and taken many photographs, thanks for taking the time to photograph the headstone of Nicholson in Vlamertinghe New Military Cemetery for me, it is much appreciated.

John

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A couple of years ago, I went after one headstone in Lijssenthoek. I had the ref, and checked it.

It wasn't there.

I eventually clicked that they are mostly buried in date order, so went searching by date and eventually found him.

Maybe a word with Mr Denham needed, for it does seem that the refs are all over the place.

Bruce

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Remember that the grave number given by CWGC is just that - the grave number. It is NOT the headstone number.

As with many cemeteries, there are more headstones in the rows than there are graves. Many graves have multiple occupancy but each casualty has his own headstone. Therefore, the row of headstones is longer than the row of graves - ie twenty headstones may stand over only 15 graves which contain twenty bodies.

As the register warns visitors, if you do not find the headstone where you expect you should check the rest of the plot. You cannot necessarily find the grave by counting headstones.

I suspect this was the cause of the difficulty. I know I have had the same problems myself in Lijssenthoek.

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Sorry, Terry, but that was not my difficulty.

I had the full ref. in advance, and checked it with the register there. The headstone I was looking for was in a different plot, different row and different number. It was about 80 yards from where the register said it would be.

It seems strange, for I have never had any difficulty in finding headstones anywhere else, and, looking for a second in the same cemetery, was able to go straight to it.

Pte. Philip Arthur Fox, from Maghull and on the local War Memorial, is not headstone XII.C.3, but is XIII.C.29. The grave where he "should " be is that of Pte. W C Brumble, 19th City of London. The location took a fair bit of finding!

Bruce

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Bruce

Worth a try!

I will use your FOX example to see if I can find an answer. I'll come back to you.

As I said, I have had similar problems myself there.

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Bruce

Just checked FOX on CWGC and his grave ref given is XIII.C.3 and not XII.C.3.

The difference in grave number could be answered by my explanation above but the Plot number appears to be correct.

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Ah!

There has been a recent correction. It looks like the plot issue was recognised and has been corrected.

Same has happened to PARRY.

I couldn't find a BRUMBLE buried at Lijssenthoek though.

Again, you cannot tell the grave number from counting the headstones. So whereas the plot number can be seen as being wrong, the grave number cannot. The old registers warned of this problem when searching some cemeteries including Lijssenthoek.

To illustrate my point using a quote from above - "Pte. Philip Arthur Fox, from Maghull and on the local War Memorial, is not headstone XII.C.3, but is XIII.C.29."

If you are standing in the cemetery, you can tell that a grave is listed as being in the wrong plot - as Bruce did here. CWGC has recognised this error and corrected it - XIII instead of XII. However, you cannot say the the grave should be No.29 and not No.3. On the ground, you have no way of telling which grave contains the body due to the multiple occupancy/individual headstone issue. You need the original documentation to see which grave contains whom. This is confirmed by the fact that CWGC has not amended the grave number.

A nightmare in a cemetery this size!

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A public thank-you to Sean for the great pictures sent to me following his recent trip.

Well done, and much appreciated.

LST_164

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A public thank-you to Sean for the great pictures sent to me following his recent trip.

Well done, and much appreciated.

LST_164

My pleasure... now where did I leave that invoice?

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I have spoken to CWGC and they confirm that a complete review of the grave numbers was undertaken at Lijssenthoek recently.

Therefore any numbers which were recorded by anyone before this may well now be out of date as will those in the cemetery register until it is replaced (which may have now happened). Anyone wanting to find a specific grave should check with the Debt of Honour rather than relying on an 'old' number.

Again, this will affect the plot numbers in the main. The 'grave' number will NOT coincide always with the headstone number in the row. These will vary due to the multiple occupancy issue I described above.

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I have spoken to CWGC and they confirm that a complete review of the grave numbers was undertaken at Lijssenthoek recently.

Therefore any numbers which were recorded by anyone before this may well now be out of date as will those in the cemetery register until it is replaced (which may have now happened). Anyone wanting to find a specific grave should check with the Debt of Honour rather than relying on an 'old' number.

Again, this will affect the plot numbers in the main. The 'grave' number will NOT coincide always with the headstone number in the row. These will vary due to the multiple occupancy issue I described above.

Thanks for that... though I'm still quite confused about how the CWGC organises the headstones, but then again I'm confused most of the time!

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