ddycher Posted 2 November , 2009 Share Posted 2 November , 2009 Russell Have tried to find some detail on Claytons assessment that Maxwell took with him but have not been able to confirm detail yet. Be interesting if we could prove that the Sanusi threat was a significant part of it. We know from Sheffy that Military and domestic intelligence grooups were at odds to whether the largest threat came from the east or west but I dont have anymore info than that. Do you have any detail ? However both Wingate and Macmahon were also present so Hay could have been a representitive of any of the intelligence offices. So doesn't help determine Sudan vs High Commissioners office vs Military Intelligence..... Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 9 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2009 Have tried to find some detail on Claytons assessment that Maxwell took with him but have not been able to confirm detail yet. Be interesting if we could prove that the Sanusi threat was a significant part of it. We know from Sheffy that Military and domestic intelligence grooups were at odds to whether the largest threat came from the east or west but I dont have anymore info than that. Do you have any detail ? Dave, It may be that the detail is in Clayton’s papers, but, unfortunately, they’re held in Durham. Before I go to Kew and start looking in an area I’m relatively unfamiliar with, do you know of any specific files at the National Archives that might be worth checking? I hope to be able to look for clues in the Clayton biography (at SOAS) later in the week. Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 9 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2009 Cant help but think we may get a better picture of Hay's movements by tracking Gilbert Clayton closer. I don't have a copy but I wonder if there is anything be got from Clayton's biography ? - An Arabian Diary." Berkeley: University of California Press, 1969. Dave, Have now checked Clayton's "An Arabian Diary", but I'm afraid it's of no use to us as we try to track J Hay. The diary part is actually post-war, dealing with 1925-26. There is a long Intro by someone called Robert O. Collins, but no mention of Hay, and it also has numerous errors – though these may partly be due to it having been written in the 1960s, before work by Sheffy, Jeremy Wilson, etc, and perhaps also before the release of many relevant files. Guess we have to fall back on National Archives Kew. Initially, I'll see if I can find Intell files covering Maxwell's trip to Lemnos/Mudros to see Kitchener, early Nov 1915. (I wonder if there is any GWF member from Durham who is interested in our search for Hay and who could check Clayton's papers at the University there.) Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 12 November , 2009 Share Posted 12 November , 2009 Russell Shame - I was hoping to get a bit more of an insight from that. Keep looking I guess. Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 12 November , 2009 Share Posted 12 November , 2009 Hi Russell I have been following this thread with interest. I tried a Kew search and came up the following: FO 841 Foreign Office: Consulate, Cairo, Egypt: Court Records Subseries within FO 841 CONSULAR COURT CASES FO 841/182 Consular court cases FO 841/182 A. Provost Marshall v. Michael Ellis 1919 I wonder if this case might mention any of your men. I then did a ‘Hay’ search in the consular court case records and came up with: FO 841 Foreign Office: Consulate, Cairo, Egypt: Court Records Subseries within FO 841 CONSULAR COURT CASES FO 841/104 Consular court cases FO 841/104 James Hay v. Plevria Osman Frost 1909 FO 841/132 Corp. of Western Egypt v James Hay 1913 I wonder if this is your man in his commercial days in Egypt as mentioned in the obituary? I tried MacDonnell as well and came with: Division within FO Records of Conferences, Committees and Councils FO 608 Peace Conference: British Delegation, Correspondence and Papers FO 608/214 British delegation, correspondence and papers relating to British Africa (Political): Egypt. FO 608/214/5 Recall of Major Macdonnell from Paris Conference to deal with political crisis in Egypt. 1919 Hope this helps Cheers Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 13 November , 2009 Share Posted 13 November , 2009 Russell I am back to Jeremy Wilson who had him as the unconfirmed "5th Officer" in his "Lawrence of Arabia". Wilson refs Hay as being responsible for 'the Tripoli side of Egypt' and I remembered you making reference to something earlier. Did this come from the same source ? Also cross refencing Larences stated role for "the ministry of the interior". Will let you know what I find. Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 13 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2009 Dominic, Some great finds there! I'm going to Kew today, so I'll check them out and report back. Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 13 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2009 I am back to Jeremy Wilson who had him as the unconfirmed "5th Officer" in his "Lawrence of Arabia". Wilson refs Hay as being responsible for 'the Tripoli side of Egypt' and I remembered you making reference to something earlier. Did this come from the same source ? Regards Dave Dave, In researching the Sanusi book my sources for identifying "the 5th musketeer" were WO telegrammes in WO 33/714; GHQ GS War Diary WO 95/4360; and T E Lawrence's letters. I found that Liddell Hart (in T E Lawrence: In Arabia and After) had made an error back in the 1930s that had confounded historians ever since. He wrote: In December, after Turkey had entered the War, it was decided to strengthen the Intelligence Service in Cairo. Newcombe was called back from France, and told that he was to go out to Egypt as assistant to Clayton. Among the officers he was to take with him were George Lloyd, Aubrey Herbert, Leonard Woolley, and Lawrence – they became known in Egypt as "the five musketeers". The error was he didn't mention Hay and included Newcome as one of the five. But Newcombe was a professional soldier; the five musketeers were not – they were all gifted amateurs, and hence their slightly ironic title of musketeers. I believe I can prove this with the following quotes 3 quotations from the sources : (1) War Office (6 Nov '14): "We are receiving offers of service from various civilians who have knowledge of Turkish language and of Asia Minor generally. Please state whether a few carefully selected persons of this sort would be of service to you." Maxwell (8 Nov '14): "Yes, a few." War Office (16 Nov '14): The following are being sent out to you for special service:- Lieut. G Lloyd ... Lieut. C L Woolley ... Lieut. J Hay ... 2nd Lieut. T E Lawrence. But, of course, Aubrey Herbert, was then sent out as well. (2) GHQ GS War Diary, entry for 20 Dec 1914: ... Five officers arrive from England are told to form nucleus Military Intelligence Dept under D of I Sudan Agency: Capt Newcombe RE, Captains George Lloyd MP, Aubrey Herbert MP, Lieuts Hay, Lawrence Woolley. and (3), T E Lawrence's letter to E T Leeds, 24 Dec 1914, in which he describes the work of the five new arrivals: Newcombe - Director Woolley - Personnel Lloyd - Mesopotamia Aubrey Herbert – Turkish One Hay does the Tripoli side of Egypt [TEL} bottle washer and office boy Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 14 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2009 Hi Russell I have been following this thread with interest. I tried a Kew search and came up the following: FO 841/182 A. Provost Marshall v. Michael Ellis 1919 FO 841/104 James Hay v. Plevria Osman Frost 1909 FO 841/132 Corp. of Western Egypt v James Hay 1913 FO 608/214/5 Recall of Major Macdonnell from Paris Conference to deal with political crisis in Egypt. 1919 Hope this helps Cheers Dominic Dominic / all I've checked the files you found for us. FO 841/182 A. Provost Marshall v Michael Ellis 1919 -- Unfortunately, nothing to do with Hay. FO 841/104 James Hay v. Plevria Osman Frost 1909 and FO 841/132 Corp. of Western Egypt v. James Hay 1913– Here, I am fairly sure that the James Hay in these two small claims cases is the same man, because the same lawyer was used in the two cases; and there is some evidence that he is indeed our James Hay -- namely the Plaintiff in the second case being the Corporation of the Western Desert and mention in the documents of a visit to the "oases". There is also mention in the second doc of his working for "the Agricultural Dept, Giza, Cairo". To me this sounds more like Ministry of Agriculture work than commercial. Nevertheless, if Hay, in whatever capacity, went to the western oases in his work before the war, he may have parleyed this into a qualification for Intell work in 1914 and be why he was assigned Tripoli and the western side of Egypt. Does this sound plausible, or am I making too much of pretty thin evidence? FO 608/214/5 Recall of Major Macdonnell – Not much information in the file, but it shows that he'd been kept hanging about in Europe for a couple of months after the start of Egypt's 1919 riots; and that he got back in the spring of that year. Re Hay again, I also went back to GHQ GS War Diary WO 95 4360 looking for some mention of Hay going to Lemnos/Mudros with Maxwell to see Kitchener in Nov 1915. Very frustrating – these are messy files and there was virtually nothing from the month in question. In pursuit of details of Hay's family life I did get one unexpected piece of information. In summer 1916 he was back in London for at least 3 weeks. Alas, I don't yet know why he was sent back. We're obviously inching forward. I think I've found an affordable way to get a day's research in Durham (early January), when I'll be checking Clayton & Wingate papers. I would like to say that researching Hay would be impossible without the assistance of GWF members. Thanks to all who have helped, and please keep your ideas coming. Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 16 November , 2009 Share Posted 16 November , 2009 Hi Russell Glad you got some info. I think you are right about the court case files-it definitlely gives Hay some background in the right area and would be something that boosted his credentials. I have to admire your tenacity in this research and hope you find more on your man as i am sure it will throw some interesting light on the whole intelligence story in Egypt. Cheers Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 19 November , 2009 Share Posted 19 November , 2009 Hi russell I checked the passenger lists and found a couple of likely outbound trips for Hay: Passenger: Hay, James year of birth: unknown Sex: M departure year:1909 Departure port: London Destination country: Egypt Destination port: Port Said Passenger: Hay, J year of birth: unknown Sex: departure year:1914 Departure port: London Destination country: Egypt Destination port: Port Said These appear to match his first visit to Egypt on business and his trip at the beginning of the war. I tried checking in bound lists to Britain but this is difficult without paying a fee. The transcripts of the outward trips should give ships names and dates I guess. Hope this helps and look forward to more detective work. Cheers Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 20 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2009 I checked the passenger lists and found a couple of likely outbound trips for Hay: .... These appear to match his first visit to Egypt on business and his trip at the beginning of the war. I tried checking in bound lists to Britain but this is difficult without paying a fee. The transcripts of the outward trips should give ships names and dates I guess. Hope this helps and look forward to more detective work. Dominic, that's brilliant! Both years fit. Hay's obits in 1919 say he had gone out 10 years earlier; and the Army Lists have him being made Temp. Lt. on 16 Nov 1914. Your surfing skills are clearly better than mine. May I ask how one checks the passenger lists? I'm trying to find out what ship was torpedoed in 1917/18 with his future wife on-board (has relevance to his personal life story – to be explained later). Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 20 November , 2009 Share Posted 20 November , 2009 Hi Russell Passenger lists can be searched via the National Archives and Ancestrystarting here: Passenger lists As I said you get an instant transcription from the outbound from Britain lists via Ancestry but not the inbound. You then have to pay for images or transcripts with more details with either set. Cheers Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 21 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2009 Dominic, Thank you for the reference. Couldn't find the lady there, despite getting the same J Hay hits as you, probably because the sailings are from the UK. Hay's trip to and from London summer 1916 wasn't on there either. Probably not many (any?) passenger ships from London to Egypt during the war. He must have sailed Egypt – Marseilles, Marseilles – Egypt. In which case, it's likely the lady would have gone across France to Marseilles also in 1917 / 18. Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 9 January , 2010 Share Posted 9 January , 2010 Russell Been a while since I have seen anything relevent but am cross referencing the EEF GHQ War Diaries and there are ref's to the Intelligence restructuring and a no. of officers being transferred from the EEF to the Egyptian Government in Jan 1917. Have you seen these before ? Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 14 January , 2010 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2010 Dave, Thank you for bringing this thread alive again! Would be very interested in the new EEF GHQ material (which I'm pretty sure I have NOT seen). Otherwise, the news re J Hay is good. I've made an important find, but I was waiting till I checked the Clayton and Wingate papers before reporting on it. I was scheduled to go to Durham on the 7th but couldn't get there because of the very bad weather. I'm away till Saturday. More on this as soon as I get back. Apologies for delay in responding. Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcguirk Posted 17 January , 2010 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Been a while since I have seen anything relevent but am cross referencing the EEF GHQ War Diaries and there are ref's to the Intelligence restructuring and a no. of officers being transferred from the EEF to the Egyptian Government in Jan 1917. Dave / all Still have not been able to check Clayton & Wingate papers as hoped, but I have FINALLY found Hay’s Service Record -- WO 374/32048. It’s hardly a surprise that part of the file has to do with the WO confusing him with others of the same name -- our man had four “long numbers”! And there’s more confusion due to the WO giving him two death dates; and to the fact that Hay had two middle names beginning with B. He was born James Boyd Hay; died James Barromew Hay. (And if this sounds unlikely, I have his birth certificate and the info on his tombstone, with parents’ names on both.) Here’s the essential new information: - 1) The Service Record begins on 6 Dec 1915 with Hay going to Matruh. The crisis in the W Desert began a month earlier. Sollum was attacked by the U-35 on 5 Nov, but Cairo HQ did not find out about this until the next day as the telegraph lines had been cut. I know from the Intell War Diary that Hay left Cairo for Matruh on 9 Nov; and that the War Diary is signed by Hay at the end of Nov. Therefore, the Service Record’s entry of 6 Dec refers to his return to Matruh after a short visit to Cairo. 2) There is no mention of Gallipoli. I believe General Maxwell went to Gallipoli to see Kitchener on or about 6 November. Since Hay was in Cairo about to depart for Matruh on the 9th, he apparently did not go to Gallipoli with Maxwell. Either he went to Gallipoli earlier in 1915 or the obituary reference to Gallipoli is simply wrong. 3) Hay was away from Egypt on leave in England from mid-June 1916 to late August 1916. 4) Between 4 September 1916 and 2 October 1916 Hay was on “Special Duty” in Port Said to do with the movement (presumably arrival in Egypt) of Armenians by the Transport Corps. 5) On 17 October 1916 he reports to one Major Barlow, Intell Officer Qantara, for duty with the EEF. 6) On 10 December 1916 he reports to HQ in Alexandria. There is then a 10-month blank in the record. 7) On 1 October 1917 Hay leaves HQ Alexandria as Commandant E.L.C Police, Qantara. [ELC = Egyptian Labour Corps.] 8) But one week later, on 7 October 1917, we find him reporting to the Commandant in Ismailia for duty with the police there. 9) On 1 November 1917 he is appointed Assistant Provost Marshal; and on 24 February 1918 he is given a local rank of Lieutenant-Colonel while he is employed as APM with the “NATIVE [!!] Military Police”. 10) On 9 June 1918 Hay arrives for duty at M.P. Corps HQ, GHQ 1st Echelon; and he arrives there again on 13 October 1918, so he’s apparently been on the move for 4 months. 11) On 20 October 1918 he is sent to Ismailia again. An Egyptian MP takes him to hospital there on 29 July 1919. He dies on 2 August of acute kidney failure. That’s the military career of James Boyd/Barromew Hay in a nutshell. Dave, your post in this thread of 9 January looks particularly promising. I think at this point the EEF files are the key to finding out more. Regards, Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 January , 2010 Share Posted 19 January , 2010 Russell You probably already know this but the MEF and EEF Intell. War Diaries are available here : http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diari....asp?levelID=69 Currently working my own way through the GHQ diaries. The appendix's are a gold mine of information. It is incredible how much wrong information is out there if you take the statements here as being definitive. Will let you know what I come across relevent from the GHQ diaries. Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirrawee Posted 2 March , 2013 Share Posted 2 March , 2013 Jim, I've just revisited this topic and wonder if you found any mention of My grandfather E. W. Smith in the war diaries you were putting on your computer. Mary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofbryce Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 On 02/03/2013 at 03:26, Kirrawee said: Jim, I've just revisited this topic and wonder if you found any mention of My grandfather E. W. Smith in the war diaries you were putting on your computer. Mary Mary, is this E W Smith from Walton On Thames, Surrey, UK? Brother of Valentine, Robert, and Samuel? I have a photo of an Ernest W Smith titled "Capt Ernest Smith Provost Marshal Cairo 1917." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 14 June , 2018 Admin Share Posted 14 June , 2018 1 hour ago, sonofbryce said: Mary, is this E W Smith from Walton On Thames, Surrey, UK? Brother of Valentine, Robert, and Samuel? I have a photo of an Ernest W Smith titled "Capt Ernest Smith Provost Marshal Cairo 1917." Hi Welcome to the forum. It seems that Mary hasn't visited the site since April 2014. You might try sending her a PM though. It would be good to see the photo if you wouldn't mind uploading it as there may be others who contributed to this thread who would have an interest. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofbryce Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 5 hours ago, DavidOwen said: Hi Welcome to the forum. It seems that Mary hasn't visited the site since April 2014. You might try sending her a PM though. It would be good to see the photo if you wouldn't mind uploading it as there may be others who contributed to this thread who would have an interest. Best wishes David Hi David, Absolutely. If I remember correctly I borrowed some images from a family member and labeled it according to the original image. I was hoping a board message of reply might prompt Mary by email so will certainly drop a private message now. "Captain Ernest Smith - Army Provost Marshal Cairo 1917" This is my grandmother's uncle. I know little about him. Being a novice at this, If someone knew where I could find anything I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 15 June , 2018 Admin Share Posted 15 June , 2018 Interesting photo, hopefully some experts will be able to identify cap badges etc and then it may be possible to find his service papers at the National Archives. In the meantime take a look at the link for the Long Long Trail above as that has plenty of useful hints and tips on how to research a soldier Good luck, you should find it fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofbryce Posted 5 November , 2019 Share Posted 5 November , 2019 (edited) Error Post - please ignore - can't find delete!! Edited 5 November , 2019 by sonofbryce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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