chrislock Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Hi Guys. Can anyone recommend any books or literature covering the above Divisions advance and securing of the Messines Ridge. Their Memorial states that they received almost 1300 casualties. Most were buried where they fell and then repatriated after the war however, some are in In Flanders Fields US Cemetery today. This is a very much understated period and I don't recall seeing too many books on their assault. Can anyone guide me please? Thank you. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Chris, I've got tons of stuff on the 27th Div's role in this action (including the "usual" details from O' Ryan's history (both volumes (Vol 2 of which contains a day by day (almost hour by hour) account of each individual unit's involvements in this action)),... the J.H.Eggers history,... Lt.Col. Kinkaid's account from the NYT, ... the "pictoral history" of the 27th, along with several regimental histories of units of this division), but next to sod-all on the 30th (other than what's in (the paragraph) in "The History of the AEF", the "Divisional history of the AEF", "United States Army in the World War 1917-19" (ie. the "official history") and "American battlefields in Europe" (1st and last editions). If you'd like me to make a CD of all the various accounts extracts (including ops orders, etc) from these sources for you (saves you hunting them out), just let me know ... just glad to see that someone else other than me is interested in this action!!! dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 How little we hear of US action in Belgium in 1918 ! Presumably the 1300 casualties you allude to were all categories : killed, wounded and missing. Or do you mean that the figure was for deaths alone, in which case the total casualties would be several times that, or at least 5000 ? Thank you for drawing attention to this. Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 2 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2009 That would be brilliant Dave, thank you! I also wish for any books with photo's to have with me whilst on the Messines Ridge tours. I'm sure there must be at least one good book out there? I will visit the documents center here in Ypres and look up any 30th stuff. Wait out! Phil. The figures refer to exactly that, casualties. From a bruised little finger to dead! Dave may be able to help us here with KIA or DOW figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Hi Chris, Havent read this one myself yet but have it: Borrowed Soldiers, Americans under British Command, 1918 - Mitchell A Yockelson Regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 3 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Hi mate. Let me know what you think of it. Maybe I could borrow it after you? Does it have any photo's from the period concerned and areas we are talking about here? Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Dave may be able to help us here with KIA or DOW figures. 53rd Inf Bde, 27th Div only (for now) - 54 Bde not really involved as such... Aug 31st: 105th Inf Reg.... 1st Bn - 1 killed 105th Inf reg ... 2nd Bn - 3 wounded 106th Inf Reg ...1st Bn - 12 missing, 9 wounded 105th MGB - 2 wounded Sept 1st: 105th Inf Reg... 1st Bn - 1 killed, 5 wounded 105th Inf reg ....2nd bn - 5 killed, 24 wounded, 2 missing 105th inf reg ...3rd Bn - 2 dead, 12 wounded 106th Inf reg ...1st bn - 1 dead, 5 wounded Sept 2nd: 105th infantry reg ... 1st Bn - 1 killed, 4 wounded, 12 missing 105th inf reg... 3rd bn - 1 killed, 14 wounded 106th Inf reg... 1st Bn - 5 killed, 24wounded, 1 gassed Sept 3rd: 105 MGB - 10 wounded ----------------------------------------------- 106th infantry regiment, 3rd Bn from August 31st - 2nd Sept suffered 24 killed, 102 wounded and 15 missing. TBC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 I'm having a bit of trouble with that 1,300 casualty figure. No matter what source i use, I just can't get the figures to tally. The figure "1300", however, is quoted in the 1995 edition of "American Battlefields in Europe" (the 1927 edition doesn't give any figures) as being the casualties of the 27th Division alone (with a further 800 being suffered by the 30th Division). However, it doesn't give any real idea of the exact dates that are covered by that casualty number (I think it means from July to September 1918 rather than just the 3 day battle of August/September, but I'm unsure (most individual accounts for the 3 day event give far lower figures)) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Both Divisions were under command of the Australian Corps at the time, so John Monash's The Australian Victories in France in 1918; As his Australian Biography entry says about the book "it was propaganda, but not far off the truth." The you could try the Volume VI of the Australian Official History which is online at the AWM http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/first_worl...p?levelID=67892 Cheers, Hendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 There appear to be 53 soldiers from the 27th Division who were KiA in this battle buried in Flanders Fields cemetery, with quite a number who died before the battle and after - making me think that the 1,300 figure is almost certainly inclusive of a wider time-span than just the battle. (However, with the average levels of repatriation taken into consideration, I don't suppose this helps much really, does it? (and it certainly doesn't help at all when considering total "casualty" (as opposed to "killed") figures! - just me thinking aloud! ) dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Clickety-click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 I also wish for any books with photo's to have with me whilst on the Messines Ridge tours. The 27th Div's pictoral history has 12 relevant photos in it. I've added these to the "collection" I'm putting on disc for you (also got some German reports and diary extracts along with the US stuff which are probably of interest) Dave. (PS - don't go out of your way for me as regards 30th Div stuff - I've actually got more than I thought (could do with divisional and regimental history extracts though!)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 The best version of American Armies & Battlefields in Europe is the 1938 one, great maps, lots of text , quite dry though but good for specific actions like this, the reprint is not complete. It also ignores things when convenient, for instance it's silent on who captured Mont Sec in St Mihiel Salient where US has a large monument, it was captured by French 39th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Hi Guys. Can anyone recommend any books or literature covering the above Divisions advance and securing of the Messines Ridge. Their Memorial states that they received almost 1300 casualties. Most were buried where they fell and then repatriated after the war however, some are in In Flanders Fields US Cemetery today. This is a very much understated period and I don't recall seeing too many books on their assault. Can anyone guide me please? Thank you. Chris. Hello, Cris - According to the history of the [u.S.] 30th Division THE THIRTIETH DIVISION IN THE WORLD WAR by Murphey & Thomas, the 30th Division participated in the Ypres-Lys Offensive from August 19th-September 4th, 1918. On August 31st-September 1st, the 119th and the 120th U.S. Infantry Regiments of the 30th Division attacked the German position that ran roughly south from Ypres to Vijverhoek and ended the attack along a line running roughly south of Manor Farm (south of Zillebeke Lake) to the Moated Grange near Voormezeele. [This was called the "Canal Sector" by the Americans, and was north of St. Eloi; it was near but not part of Messines Ridge.] The two regiments captured Lankoff Farm, Lock No. 8, Voormezeele, and Moated Grange and held the line until relief by the British was completed during the morning of September 5th. During the two days of hardest fighting on August 31st and September 1st, the division lost only 165 men (37 killed and 128 wounded). Although this was a small action by WWI standards, it was the first offensive action by the 30th Division, which together with the 27th Division, performed well. The [u.S.] 27th Division attacked along the line immediately south of the 30th Division and so would have been closer to Messines Ridge. You have the figures for casualties of the 27th Division's regiments during the same period. Both divisions suffered heavy casualties attacking the Hindenburg Line running between Bony and Bellicourt on September 28th-29th. During the entire period of September 23rd-October 19th, the 30th Division lost 1,065 killed out of a total casualty list of 6,402. I don't have the 27th Division's casualties for the same period, but I distinctly recall that they were remarkably similar to those of the 30th Division. Perhaps the figure of 1,300 is the total figure of KIA for the 27th Division during the entire period August - November 1918. The American casualties at the Canal Sector at Ypres were relatively low by WWI standards. I apologize for the lengthiness of this response, but I tried to be thorough in what I wrote about the 30th Division. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 3 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2009 I took this poor quality pic about an hour ago off the Kemmel Memorial itself. It shows US 30 Div troops almost up to the Ramparts and certainly at Shrapnel corner. It does indeed show Lock No 8 as the objective along with the Lankoff bunkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 3 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2009 And here are the 30th and 27th Divs casualty lists and it does indeed list the casualties at 2100 just for the Messines Ridge offensive. Still, it really makes me look at the Lankoff bunkers and Lock No 8 in a different light. Driving through Voormezele and Vierstraat is also a new experience knowing that US troops were positively fighting here as per the above map positions and ORBAT. This raises a huge level of interest for me now. Thank you all for your input, it is much appreciated, thank you! Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 This is all new material to me, so thanks very much to everyone. Map attached of the position achieved by the northern division. Hope It's legible & useful. Unless the British troops made a further push to the line marked 9.9.18, then Lock 7 was also captured by the US Troops. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 6 July , 2009 Share Posted 6 July , 2009 Chrislock, You may want to read Borrowed Soldiers: Americans under British Command, 1918 by Mitchell A. Yockelson, ISBN978 0 8061 3919 7 , University of Oklahoma Press, published in 2008. I can't comment on it yet as it only arrived on my doorstep today from the States. Cheers, Hendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 July , 2009 Share Posted 6 July , 2009 Dave may be able to help us here with KIA or DOW figures. ...from the 53rd Bde history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 6 July , 2009 Share Posted 6 July , 2009 Yaaayy!!! Ok First things first. Duty Honor Privilege by Stephen Harris deals specifically with the 107th Inf., but obviously covers the entire 27th Div. (and by extension the 30th). I would also recommend Borrowed Soldiers as suggested above. I had an opportunity to see Dr. Yockelson speak here in New York and found him to be very knowledgable and accessable. His "real job" is for the Library of Congress (I think may be wrong about that though) and had access to the full panalpy of records. The book deals with both the 27th and 30th as opposed to one specific unit. I would also point you to O'Ryans Roughnecks. Its a site for the reenactment unit of the 107th, but has extensive links to various historic douments including aerial photos (mostly of Hindenburg Line). At home I have a panoramic photo of the ground covered by the Americans that I took this May. I will post it when I get home and have access. The casualty figure that is quoted would in all likelihood cover the American's actions while on the Western Front, especially on and around Sept. 29, 1918 when they attacked the St Quentin Canal part of the Hindenburg line near Bony. The 27th Div. attacking that morning started from approximately 2000 yards behind where the creeping barrage began due to wounded laying out from attacks in the days leading up meant to straighten out the line. As a consequence the 107th suffered heavy causalties in the intial assault and due to the fact that the Germans were able to pop up from concealed gun positions behind the advancing Americans. By the time the 107th was relieved it had lost 22 officers killed or wounded, 324 men killed and 874 wounded. The 107th Infantry suffered the largest number of single day casualties of any regiment in the U.S. Army in any conflict; 1,062 of which 349 were listed as K.I.A. If I can be of any additional help please feel free to PM me. This is a personal interest of mine. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 July , 2009 Share Posted 6 July , 2009 ...a couple of other casualty listings for the 31st August - Sept 1/2nd period (30th Div this time)... 119th Regiment...67 killed ,216 wounded, 12 DoW, 2 missing 120th Regiment... 33 killed, 216 wounded, 1 missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 6 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2009 Chrislock, You may want to read Borrowed Soldiers: Americans under British Command, 1918 by Mitchell A. Yockelson, ISBN978 0 8061 3919 7 , University of Oklahoma Press, published in 2008. I can't comment on it yet as it only arrived on my doorstep today from the States. Cheers, Hendo Thank you Hendo. I will see if I can find it! Thank you. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 6 July , 2009 Share Posted 6 July , 2009 The September 29 attack was at Riqueval there is a plaque there. It's a good visit, right there is the bridge over the canal where a famous picture of British 46th (?) Division men on it some wearing life jackets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 6 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2009 Hi Jon/Dave. These are amazing facts and figures. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. It's about time there was more American input here in Ieper today as these men deserve it. In 5 years of living here, I have never heard or seen of a US 27th & 30th official Ceremony at the Menin Gate Memorial but then again, I could have missed it if there was. Now theres a task for someone!! Thank you. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 7 July , 2009 Share Posted 7 July , 2009 Here is the panoramic I spoke of. Helpful if used with the map provided on the monument since its taken right in front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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