Conor Dodd Posted 22 February , 2003 Share Posted 22 February , 2003 What's the value not preserving the record? Roll the clock on 300 years. An eminent historian of the day declares that the Western Front and the conflict of 1914-18 is a myth; it never happened; it was a piece of propaganda devised by Euro-integrationists of the 21st Century to bolster the case for a united Europe. Further, our historian adds with a triumphant flourish, there is no archaelogical record to support the idea of a so-called 'Western Front'.Stupid? Far-fetched? Then visit some of the holocaust denial/revisionist sites to see examples of this type of reasoning about something which happened less than sixty years ago and killed tens of millions.Leave it alone. It does not belong to us. We are only stewards for those who co;e after us. Dear Hedley, It will be a long time before all the items relating to the First World War battlefields are gone but it eventully will (who knows it could be 100's of years) but I don't have a problem with people taking items home (small things that people have found nosecaps etc. and things that they have bought in museums) the western front is being very very slowly cleared I don't think that people leaving near the battlefields would be happy if these stockpiles of empty shellcases nosecapes etc. bulding up on their doorsteps (you might see that a bit farfetched) but it propably would happen if things on the battlefields where left the way they were. In museums you see pieces that were taken from the ground but for the most they are only interested in rare pieces rifles parts of unforms etc. They have no real interest in small pieces of broken shrapnel and what would happen to it if it would be left in fields the probability is that it would be destroyed at the same rate as people are taking it I would much prefere to see it being displayed in a case in somebodys living room then being destroyed and could you imagine the uproar then. Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 22 February , 2003 Share Posted 22 February , 2003 This debate has got me thinking. Until now I have hardly given a thought to picking up and keeping spent cartridges, shrapnel balls, spent bullets etc. on the basis that there are millions of them lying out there. Now I am not so sure and am coming round to the view that provided they are harmless (notwithstanding the tetanus risk) they should be left were they are as part of the legacy of the momentous events which took place there. I have just returned from a visit to KwaZulu Natal and Lesotho during which time I visited amongst other Boer and Zulu War battlefield sites, a place where the British had blown up a catch of captured ammunition. Even now after a 100 years or so the grass is stunted with many bare/scorched patches, presumably poisoned by the effects of explosives. On closer inspection I found the ground between the grass stalks was littered with semi-melted bits of tarnished brass which are clearly the remains of small arms cartridges. I was thrilled at making this discovery, and remember thinking at the time that it would be a tragedy if these relics get scavanged by souvenir hunters. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 22 February , 2003 Share Posted 22 February , 2003 On an environmental issue there is the subject of contamination. I do not mean the gas shells and high explosive materials that do cause problems each year, especially for the professional ordnance disposal units. There is the smaller issue of the lead shrapnel balls and brass casings. These items eventually break down into the food chain by contaminating the soil. Recent issues of lead contamination in the U.S. leads me to believe that the shrapnel balls are also causing a higher lead content to much of the western front soil and this will enter the food chain through the crops being grown. Car exhaust and other industrial processes already place a great deal of lead and other heavy metals in our soil each year. I am not saying that we are 'helping' the farmers and consumers by picking up some of the loose items sitting on top of the fields but considering the millions of shrapnel balls and other items still in the ground the relatively few that are taken as souvenirs will not alter the archeological situation that much and in a small way remove potential pollution sources. You must also consider that these items have already been disturbed by decades of plowing and many have been moved great distances from their original location. Since the Somme area is primarily agricultural and in private hands for commercial uses I see the biggest issue being crop destruction by heavy handed souvenir hunters. I have often seen fields with numerous footprints showing that one or more persons have gone over every inch looking for artifacts and in the process destroying crops. Someone has already mentioned that the local sales of artifacts at museums and shops all come from the same source as the items picked up by hand. It will take centuries before the Somme is cleared of debris. Some will rust but other items will last over the years. I have visited Gettysburg, Pa. since I was a child. When I first went to the battlefield the tour guides would hand out bullets picked up from the local fields as souvenirs. This practice has stopped over time but you can still find numerous items, especially after a rain storm or at plowing time. I had several friends find musket balls just a few years ago north of the town on a quick scan of the field near the 119th N.Y. monument. Consider that only some 125,000 men or so fought for three days in 1863 and numerous items still exist. Just picture the Somme where the fighting lasted from September 1914 through the end of 1918 and imagine the tons of items still in the ground. Human remains found anywhere should be reported accordingly. Organized looting with metal detectors should be discouraged but if you come across the stray shrapnel ball (found one in a puddle on the road opposite the Pozieres cemetery and from the recent turf replacement at a monument near Thiepval) it will not have the impact of destroying an historic site. The area needs some sort of organized archeological review, specific sites should be excavated and mapped, the finds catalogued so that the record is available to all. Thius sort of historical review could provide much more detail than what is currently in place. The Diggers in Belgium have already displayed the amount of historical data that can be obtained through simple measures. The idea is to do it in an organized manner, take detailed notes and photographs and to publish the findings for all to see. More of the historical picture has been lost to building sites, houses, roads, etc. than any number of tourists could do in a lifetime. What is the balance between historical preservation and economic progress? I doubt we will ever find the right mix of the two. Sorry about the ramblings in this post, it seemed to go from one subject to the next. Just as an end note I too am guilty of bringing smal items home (yes, they do get through the airport screeners without a single question) where I document the location where they are found, the identity of the items and the dates and photographs from my trip. I will pass these along to my son who has shown a keen interest in history so that he will at least know when, where and how the items were discovered. I sell nothing I have found and each holds a particular memory of the trip and somehow a bond to those who actually fought in the war. Ralph P.S. Just remembered something. If the artifacts are so precious as to completely leave them in situ then why is there a pile of war debris rusting behind the grounds shed in the corner of Delville wood, everything from shells to screw pickets, rifle barrels, tools, etc.? Shouldn't sites such as Delville Wood with its museum and well kept grounds also maintain everything for the future in situ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 23 February , 2003 Share Posted 23 February , 2003 By discussing this subject we are also advertising the fact that there are things out there to be taken. Those who take things are hardly likely to stop the practise but I wonder how many people will be encouraged to go looking now that might not have done before reading this thread? Wouldn't be surprised if the shed at Delville gets a few more visitors than usual in the next few weeks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 23 February , 2003 Share Posted 23 February , 2003 Alan I did in fact think of this and for that reason did not identify the site I was refering to in SA! Hopefully most people using this forum are responsible enthuisasts, the casual souvenir hunter is unlikely to plow through pages of postings, or am I being niaive? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 23 February , 2003 Share Posted 23 February , 2003 My intention was not to cause a rush to Delville Wood. The items stored there are mostly shells and parts of shells, not the sort of item to pick up casually. These can be found all along the front. As to the remainder of the items they are intertwined in a pile of rusty iron and steel. I feel that the people who are casual souvenir collectors already know where to go and find items. The professional grave robbers also already know where to look for items so I doubt this forum will help or hinder the issue. I saw several men looking through a pile of dirt froma recent excavation on the western front (site will remain anonymous), they came up with numerous shrapnel balls, cartridges and fuzes and parts of fuzes. The pile of dirt was destined for removal so I expect they decided to take what they could before the earth pile disappeared. Is this despoiling the battlefield? Or is it preservation? Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 24 February , 2003 Share Posted 24 February , 2003 ... (snip) ...The Musee is a locally sponsered organisation, so everything is above aboard and within the confines of French law. ... (snip) Paul, Do you have any idea why the Musée sells metal-detectors? It's hardly giving off the right message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 24 February , 2003 Share Posted 24 February , 2003 Must confess I haven't been in there for a few months, and wasn't aware that they did this. As I said previously, I don't know what their policy is on selling relics, but it is my understanding that metal detectors themselves are not illegal - just their use in certain areas (i.e. on archaeo sites and on battlefields etc). I would agree, however, that a museum on the Somme selling detectors is not sending out the right message, but the Musee has undergone some great changes in terms of the admin and management in recent years, and maybe not always for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 24 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2003 I believe that a number of the relics they have for sale at the Albert museum actually come from the the Tommy Cafe at Pozieres. A number of years ago I bought a tunic from the museum shop. On the way home we stopped at the cafe and the small chap (sorry, forgotten his name) said he actually gave the tunic to be sold in the museum and frequently gives relics to the museum to 'dispose of'. I also know that the cafe does in fact sell relics, last time I was there (June 2002) a chap bought 2 relic rifles from there. I do recommend the cafe as the amount and variation of relics on view are quite something. Quite a few have been mounted in a mock up trench system, the relics even include Vickers, Lewis' and Maxims'. A fascinating display James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabiansson Posted 24 February , 2003 Share Posted 24 February , 2003 Concerning metal detectors. They are, as Paul says, themselves not illegal - but their use on historical sites is. And the Western Front is a historical site, indeed, whatever some may say. It is very sad that the museum sells such equipment. /Nils [from http://www.ncmd.co.uk/law.htm] The use of metal detectors was controlled by the use of the war time Patrimony Act 1941 but, on the 18 December 1989 Law Number 89-900 (NOR: MCCX8900 163L) was adopted which states: Article 1: No one may use metal detecting equipment for the purpose of searching for monuments and objects which could interest (concern) prehistory, history, art or archaeology without first having obtained administrative authorisation issued according to the qualification of the applicant and also the nature and method of searching. Article 3: Every infringement of the present law will be noted by officers, police agents and other law enforcement officers, as well as by officials, agents and guardians of Article 3 of the law number 80-532 of 15 July 1980 relative to the protection of public collections against acts of vandalism. Under French law the enactment of legislation is followed by the Decree which determines how the law will be applied. In this case the Decree states: Article 1 The authorisation to use metal detectors, provided for by Article1 of the 18 December 1989 Law is granted, on the demand of the interested party, by the license of the Prefect of the region in which the land to be searched is situated. The request for authorisation must establish the identity, competence and experience of the applicant as well as the location, scientific objective and the duration of the searches to be undertaken. When the searches are to be carried out on land which does not belong to the applicant, the written application must be accompanied by a document of consent written by the owner of the land and, if appropriate, anyone else who has the right. Article 2 Anyone who uses a metal detector to carry out searches of the sort described in Article 1 of the Law without having first obtained the authorisation required or who does not observe the requirements described in Article 1 of this Decree will be punished by the fine applicable for contraventions of the fifth class. The equipment used in the infringement will be confiscated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 25 February , 2003 Share Posted 25 February , 2003 This is for real, in 1998 I saw French police in the Argonne with a Frenchman in tow for this. Someone at the museum needs talking to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 25 February , 2003 Share Posted 25 February , 2003 I have been given some shrapnel balls when I was on my first battlefield tour a couple of years ago. I never really felt the urge to 'root about' in the mud for odds and ends of military hardware, although I did buy a Mills bomb (in relic condition) from the Ulster Tower giftshop. I do, however, collect small pieces of wood (dead, fallen wood and NOT live parts from trees) of about 6 inches long. These, when I have got home, have been cleaned, sealed, stained and mounted with a brass plaque indicating where I got them from. So far I have pieces from Delville Wood, Plugstreet Wood, Sanctuary Wood (from virtually the same spot one of my great uncles was killed in action) and a couple of other places. The only problem I have encountered was a farmer who was upset that I only wanted 6 inches of dead wood and didn't want the half ton he had in his yard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 25 February , 2003 Share Posted 25 February , 2003 Lee, Other interesting bits of wood can be found as collelctables as well. It was common practice when ships went to the breakers yard for wood (typically teak) from the ship to be recovered and made into small souvenirs with an appropriate plaque. Whereas you might think this stopped with the introduction of Iron Clads you would be wrong - plenty of deck timbers and other woodwork! Ones that regularly appear on eBay and elsewhere include souvenirs from the teak of the dreadnought HMS Queen Elizabeth and the plaque usually refers to her service in the Dardanelles. In particular I recall seeing several letter openers made from Lizzie's timbers. Maybe you might consider expanding the collection! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 25 February , 2003 Share Posted 25 February , 2003 Martin - I was at HMS Victory last year with my 'step'-grand-daughter and in the HMS Victory Museum they were selling pieces of the ship which had been removed during renovation. I think my dad might still have a piece we got from there in the 1970's. As to expanding the collection, I think Jean might have something to say about that . However, it does sound tempting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 February , 2003 Share Posted 26 February , 2003 While I was at Hooge this week I picked up the current edition of the Armourer magazine; it contains an article about the discovery of an MG 08/15 machine gun on the Somme last year by a chap from Sussex called Jay Howe, who sells battlefield relics on the Internet via Ebay. The article clearly states Mr Howe metal detects with the express purpose of selling his finds; given the comments about current legislation, I am quite surprised the Armourer would run such an article and Mr Howe would advertise his activities! He has a website at: http://www.jay.howe.btinternet.co.uk/ The WW1 relics he sells, mainly from the Somme, are at: http://www.dugup.co.uk/ww1page1.htm Would be interested to see what others thinks of this; has anyone else seen the article? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 26 February , 2003 Share Posted 26 February , 2003 Mr. Howe has been quite busy it seems. I wonder how much was lost in his efforts to find the good stuff he sells. Now this is true battlefield destruction for commercial profit alone. Now that everything has been removed from the original site the archeological value is also lost. Reminds of the pot hunters in the southwest. The ground looks like a crater field after these enthusiasts dig it up. I recall seeing some German ID discs on eBay, not sure if from the same guy, but just what else was taken when these were found? Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 26 February , 2003 Share Posted 26 February , 2003 I can just see my wife's face if I bought one of these relics...... Well perhaps with all the publicity Mr Howe is being given he might get lifted by the French Police next time he's out with his detector! I am aghast - this is just plundering. One would have thought that a man of Mr Howe's background (ex Para poss Falklands Vet) would have more respect. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Fisher Posted 26 February , 2003 Share Posted 26 February , 2003 Having viewed Mr Howe's collection of 'battlefield relics', I'd be intrigued to know how much of it had been dug up five minutes after being buried....... I'd suggest a large proportion of the insignia (cap badges, shoulder titles etc) currently for sale in France and Belgium at the moment were probably knocked up within the last thirty years - relics only of Birmingham's fading metal-bashing history....the only 'genuine' relics I have been offered were from a bucket full of live .303 rounds by a marvellous old French farmer. Er... no, ta, mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 27 February , 2003 Share Posted 27 February , 2003 I recall seeing some German ID discs on eBay, not sure if from the same guy, but just what else was taken when these were found? One thing to remember is that the zinc (not pure)German ID discs deteriorate quite naturally in the open air after all these years.Many sellers advertise "dug" items ,that admittedly,look "dug", but have actually have been lost in the bottom of a drawer or in "grandad's personal belongings" for the past 85 years.The oxidation of the alloys in WW1 German tags ages them VERY fast,quite naturally,without them being buried. I'm currently doing research for a book on "Military Identification Discs 1870-1945" and have in my possession several (100+) German ID tags dating from WW1. The majority of these look "dug",but in reality never were. (I know this from the sources where I obtained them).I have a couple of tags that are actually to casualties, but the "Deutsche Kriegsgraberfursorge" have confirmed that these men are known to them and have graves.The tags are N.O.K. "sendbacks". Every single tag I have received has been researched and I can confirm that "casualty" tags are rare (they are,after all an easy thing to lose!).The one tag that I have found actually "in situ." turned out to belong to another that was known to the German war Graves commission (D.K.G.F) and was found nowhere near the frontlines (actually in the area of a munitions explosion in 1915 in the Ardennes).Nothing else was in the area of the find.This was checked thoroughly. My point here is that,not every relic that is advertised as "dug",actually is! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_McGarry Posted 27 February , 2003 Share Posted 27 February , 2003 Having viewed the metal detectorists collection I feel happier about my shrapnel ball (one) ! half a .303 cartridge and piece of shrapnel. Mr H is in business and probably has no real interest in the great war other than what money can be made from it. That is the difference between us I think... My 3 items were picked up off the ground as a memento of the place and time... and much to my wifes disgust live on my bookcase... When I can't get to the front I can look at them and remember..... Mr H looks at them and sees $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 27 February , 2003 Share Posted 27 February , 2003 I agree with Steve.(although much respect to Mr J.Howe, as a maroon mafia man - has he ever claimed to be a Falklands Vet.????) My wife's grandfather's cousin was in the loyal North lancs. and was posted as "missing" in Nov. 1914. I found in "Nun's Wood" (the area where he went missing)a couple of "1911" dated .303 cartridge cases.These,along with a couple of shrapnel balls from the same area and his original cap badge I have mounted on a display stand.I see nothing wrong with this kind of collection.It is for commemoration. Dave. (N.I.(and a couple of scars to prove it!)Vet.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 28 February , 2003 Share Posted 28 February , 2003 1. Generally speaking the laws that many nations, not just those in Europe, have enacted that forbid removal of artifacts from sites was done in order to protect the archeological record and the heritage of the cultures that have inhabited these places from the dawn of mankind (created or evolved take your pick). Now in my personal opinion these laws were passed to protect sites where true archeology can contribute to the understanding and the study of the past. Now as I see it the Great War is very well documented in many venues that are not available to those who study the more distant past. (written record, audio & film recordings, and physical artifacts and features. What's a feature? Let me harken back to my Archeology 101 class: Basically a feature is a large manmade object that is too big to be held in the hand or moved i.e. a building foundation, fire pit, trench etc). Because of this it is my Archeological educated opinion that the removal of WW1 surface finds (Arch 101: artifacts that are found on the surface) will not negatively impact the scientific study of the war. I bet by now you can tell what one of my hobbies is 2. To address original topic. I never use a metal detector and I've never done any digging, everything I've picked up was a surface find. My best battlefield finds are as follows: a. UK combat boot, you can still read "size 14 1916" on the insole (for a surface find I am very impressed with its condition, most of the seems are still intact and almost all the hobnails are still present even though the sole is 99% gone.) b. Lewis gun magazine with 32 rounds still in it (personally not my find but my mate who found it was just 2 meters to my right, curse his luck ) c. UK & GE water bottles (pretty rusty but in good enough shape to keep and preserve) d. 12 inch section of GE saw tooth barbed wire e. 2 full coils of UK wire. f. 6 pigtail pickets (two 2 meter long ones with rounded tops, one 2 meter length on with pointed top and three smaller ones that were used to stake down the wire at the edges of the wire belts) Each were found at various locations Verdun, Somme, Ypres. g. GE & FR bayonets and 1/3 of a broken UK bayonet, handle end. h. Various nose cones and fuses. i. 2 UK etool heads, both in good enough shape to still dig in the garden with. As for human remains and UXO (unexploded ordnance). The bones I bury and say a pray over, the UXO I sometimes photograph but always leave it where I found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Fisher Posted 1 March , 2003 Share Posted 1 March , 2003 This is obviously a hot topic where no-one will agree on the validity or legitimacy of 'finds' and their keeping or leaving. Perhaps we're all missing the point. To go to the Somme valley, or any other battlefield region, and walk the fields where our forebears fought and fell should suffice. Just soak up the history, the ghosts of the place, and recognise and respect the sacrifice and pain that occured there. And if by some small chance you see something in the chalky soil, well, that's your decision. Take or leave, but stop for a moment and remember the fallen. To profit from our grandfathers' sacrifice is disrespectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 1 March , 2003 Share Posted 1 March , 2003 I think that sums it up nicely Graeme Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 1 March , 2003 Share Posted 1 March , 2003 I suspect that Mr Howe may well not be the man doing the metal detecting given that the items he is selling come from both Belgium and France. I suspect that locals in both countries will benefit from a blind eye from the local bobby. I am not sure that a Brit could expect the same treatment. Given the high prices Mr Howe charges (and seems to get), there would be plenty of potential profit margin from buying from the local Belgian and French collectors fairs or detectorists direct and then selling on to the UK/US collectors. I must say my attitude is somewhat ambivalent . Much of the ferrous material being found will decay totally in a fairly few years - certainly before any attempt is made to excavate it. My concern is not so much for the artefacts but for disrespect to human remains which I suspect is occuring during illicit excavations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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