Battlefield Discoveries

[cooper]

I am new to this forum, and I have found it very interesting and rewarding. I requested details from a couple of members who have been kind enough to return them to me. Thanks for that.

I have thought about a new topic which personally I find fascinating and I hope you do as well. I would be eager to hear your stories as well.

I though members could tell their stories of anything they personally have found whilst on walkabout on the battlefield, or give any news of what has recently been discovered in various battle site.

I will kick off with a story of my own.

The first time we visited Verdun I was 17 years old. My father on a previous holiday had found some trenches in an area which in future years would become very familiar.

We walked down the path from the memorial at Cote 304 north, down hill, though the woods. Something caught our eye, we looked and saw gathered at the bottom of one of the numerous craters a cluster of live shells. we couldnt believe it, still there after all that time.(we didnt know how common the sight would become in later years).

We took pictures near them ,careful not to disturb them. Well that made our day.

The next day we returned we walked down the same path until we reached the bottom. We saw numerous trench posts in upright positions in various places, but one stood out. We looked close, the tip was hollow and splayed. We carefully freed it only to discover that it was in fact a rifle! Well that was our holiday made.

After we returend we later discovered that it was a French MLE 1886. What a story that could tell.

Since this time I have walked many battlefields and discovered various relics, all of which have been in some cases cleaned and displayed.

What stories do you have?

I look forward to hearing from some of you.

All thes best,

James

[Hedley Malloch]

I am no longer sure what I think of the morality of disclosing new interesting finds on battlefields. Ten years ago I would not have had a problem, but today ....

I do know of some interesting sites with high-class physical remains, either with original equipment still intact or possessing unique features. But what would happen if the contents and location of these sites was disclosed? One farmer tolerates the 50 or so cogniscenti who visit every year: would he tolerate 500? I don't know. Do I want to tell the metal-detector brigade of a virgin site? No, I don't. This is not intended as a comment on the regulars to this Forum. But once this information is posted then it is in the public domain and it becomes a hostage to fortune. The protection given to battlefields and artefacts is very limited and I think we ought to be very careful about what we say.

So sorry, I am going to pass on this one.

[paul guthrie]

I have never found anything really good but two years ago on the Somme with Paul Reed my friend Stan found a nose cone for an 18 pdr shell. This was on a path which had been walked by thousands near Courcelette.

Last fall at Sulva near Lala Baba Sue Butler of Holt's found a shoulder badge - wrong word - for the Scottish Horse. There are a good many of them buried in the cemetery there, it was the first I had heard of this obscure - to me - regiment. Good find Sue!

[Mark A]

Like your find at busy Courcelette Paul, a few years ago I found a British entrenching tool at Delville Wood on one of the main rides, crushed down into the mud by hundreds , thousands maybe (?) visitor's feet. Gave it in at the cafe and they said it might be added to the relics on display in the memorial/museum. Don't know though, I haven't been back.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Came across a 4.5 Inch howitzer shell casing and field gun fuze outside of Mouquet Farm. Casing was made in the U.S. for the British Army.

Ralph

[Max Poilu]

There is still much out there, but I think a distiction should be made between what you see lying on top of the ground which is I believe fair game, and what can be found by digging or illegal use of a metal detector which is definitely not on IMO.

Here is what I found while wandering the fields of the Somme a few days this January:

18 pdr brass charge case with primer cover still in place (case had been hit by something and exploded), assorted large pieces of Rum Jars, 'Gartons' HP sauce glass stopper (and another unmarked one), some 12" pieces of barbed wire, brass instruction plate from a British field radio, large GS button, '08 pattern buckle, china German beer bottle stopper, 5 British assorted 18 pdr inert fuse tops, screw cap and porcelain ball of German stick Grenade, transport plug of Kugel grenade, bottom of German gas mask canister, large British spade, British rifle pull through, complete barbed wire picket, broken British bayonet, approx 35 bullets (fired), 90 pieces of brass shell banding, assorted pieces of Mills grenade casing, china crockery, 18 pdr flash tubes and ejector plates, small pieces of leather equipment and the usual endless supply of shrapnel balls - the limiting factor being the weight! Needless to say the dozen or so live Mills bombs seen were left well alone as were the odd Stokes mortar or un-exploded shells.

In all the years of visiting F&F very few exciting things have been found - a roman ring near the Albert - Bapaume road, clay smoking pipes, one KRRC badge and another shoulder title, many buttons...but mainly the same old stuff as above - most common seems to be balls, shell banding, bullets and Rum Jar pieces!

But, never dig, never use a detector, never walk in sown fields, keep away from commerative areas etc and never touch what you are not sure of.

[paul guthrie]

I sure agree with Hedley that we do not want to help looters but I do not see how these posts so far would. Let me know if that's wrong.

The largest dealer in the US openly advertises battlefield dug!

[Alan Lines]

I've found a fair few things similar to those above. Some of the best items were also found on well used tracks i.e fuses, a spoon, bits of rum jar, buckle, shrapnel, hand grenade fragments and my friend even found a French entrenching tool in perfect condtion. (minus handle) That said like a lot of people I have very strong feelings about what is acceptable and what is not when it comes to picking things up from the battlefields, but that belongs on another thread.

[cooper]

Like Giles, I believe that anything found lying on top is Ok, especially as over time it will just deteriorate.

My personal feeling are that I am preserving these items for future generations. I think that if it generates just one question as to what that item is, it has done it's job to bring a little closer to home the sacrfice of of the 1st world war, which for that person, until then was just forgotten.

I have never used metal detectors or dug holes, merely tramped tracks which many have done before. Just been lucky.

James

[ianw]

As a lad , myself and a friend were bit the metal detector bug and used it to great effect on Southampton Common which was used in both wars as a military camp . We unearthed many cap badges and loose change and had great sport dodging spoil sport officials.

Modern detectors are much more sophisticated and I would surmise that they could be used to strip an area of all non-ferrous material in very short order since you can programme them to reject and ignore less valuable ferrous material.

[egbert]

Sure there is much stuff out there. Many forum users have their personal experience on what they found, what they consider precious. Here is my most precious: fingerbones, hipbones and other small human remains! Friend and foe - who knows - doesn't matter. My message is: don't you dare touch them, leave them where they are, respect the dead, say a little prayer. These remains belong to the earth where they rest since many years. (I even found human remains at 10 meters radius around the well known place my Granddad was KIA = and left them were they belong to - in Flanders fields).

[Tom Morgan]

Before we give the impression that it's OK to pick up anything you find lying on the battlefields, it might be worth mentioning that in France and Belgium, as in the UK and most other countries, it's an offence to take anything from someone else's land without the permission of the owner. If you see a shell fuse lying in a field, it belongs to the man who owns the field.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't pick up such things - I probably have as many bits and pieces as anyone else - but I think we should remember that it isn't quite "fair game."

Certainly, nine times out of ten, a farmer might not interrupt a field-walker but this doesn't mean that he thinks the field-walker is doing him a favour (as the field-walker may believe.) Don't be surprised if, on the tenth outing, a farmer pulls up in a car and tells you to clear off.

The best insurance, of course, is to ask first.

[Paul Reed]

Some interesting points made here, which link in with what I was saying about not posting trench maps on web sites - for exactly the same reasons.

I have seen this in action; I visited a wood on the Somme with some German friends, armed with copies of 1916 German trench maps. We were able to follow the action quite well and found many of the positions and trenches still intact; some visitors who came with the friends were very impressed and no doubt innocently aired their impressions upon their return. The next time we visited said wood, all the trenches had been dug over and the site looted - and you are not telling me that was a co-incidence!

Egbert makes a good point - the reality of the battlefield today is that it is still the resting place of thousands. Even field walking you will find remains; sadly I know for a fact that some so-called "collectors" have actually removed these remains and they now reside in their so-called "museums".

In an ideal world we would share everything with everybody; bitter experience has taught me caution, I must say.

[Tim Birch]

My best find was a complete clip of 5 live Mauser rifle rounds. I have also found numerous shapnel balls and spent British and German cartridge cases. I have also found many bits of barbed wire, bottle tops, a brass belt buckle pin and fragments of exploded shell casing, together with various unidentified bits of metal.

On quite a few occaisions I have found dud shells of varying sizes, including a couple of monsters in Mametz wood which sent shivers down my spine. These are always left strictly untouched, as are bits of bones.

I also found a fibre British ID disk, but unfortunately the name and number had weathered too badly to be able to read it.

In a wood near a WW1 airfield in Britain I once came across bits of wreckage from an early aeroplane, including the virtually intact undercarriage, just visible deep in a bramble bush.

Bearing in mind the millions, if not billions of small arms rounds which were fired on the Western FrontI have found surprisingly few spent bullets. What sort of find rate do others have for bullets?

Tim

[Max Poilu]

"My best find was a complete clip of 5 live Mauser rifle rounds"

You didn't keep them did you?! These 85 year old items are of course as illegal as live rounds made yesterday, in the current climate if discovered on your person at Dover, you would not be too popular.

There are plenty of inert bullet heads lying about.

[cooper]

Over the years I have found numerous bullets and cases, all the live ones were left alone. However I did find an unusual round, it was a Lebel round, unfired but with the bullet head actually turned the other way round. A dum dum?

I have come across a couple of large calibre fired cases 9.3mm I think from some sort of mauser deriative? Near one I also came across an american WWII 0.3in Browning case. Both were in the same path.

Also on the mort homme ridge battlefield I also found a .303, did the british fight there in any sort of small unit or would it have been American forces?

James

[Mark A]

I agree with you Tom, always worth asking the farmer for permission and never "cross a crop" as my farming Grandad used to say. Anyway, two or three of my best relics were given to me by farmers when I decided to try out my sub A-level French. I think they took pity on me!

As far as people keeping bones- I'm utterly shocked frankly.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Mark,

I totally agree with you - anyone keeping items that could be classed as human remains are to paraphrase Nye Bevan 'lower than vermin'.

Unfortunately a trade is thriving on Nazi German memorabilia from Eastern Europe, which essentially is sourced from desicrating the millions of german graves in these countries. Shameful utterly shameful.

Ian

[CROONAERT]

I've been "field walking" now for the past 16 years (before anyone says it, "no I'm not tired" ) and have NEVER taken a metal detector (useless really because of all the bits of metal lying around) nor even so much as a trowel to a battle site.All the finds that I have ,have or one day will reach the public domain at no profit to myself (donations to museums etc.). I believe that a museum of relics is better than just letting history rot away.Everything I have found has been on the surface,either through ploughing,road widening,forest clearing etc. I'm also not prepared to give the exact locations of my finds (for obvious reasons).

My favourite find (in an area of the German April 1918 offensive) was a 1917 "Ledermaske" gas mask,still with parts of the leather remaining.The filter and one eyepiece was found one day ,and the other eyepiece 2 weeks later.Believe it or not, the canister was found near the same spot a year later.A 1915 "Gummimaske" was found in the Verdun area on the same day as several waterbottles (German and French), a French helmet, German belt buckle,a couple of Lebel/Berthier rifles, a French gasmask canister and a lot of 8mm Lebel rounds still in their waxed paper wrappings (a corroded ammunition box?). My favourite find from the Somme area is a fully loaded Lewis gun magazine,curiously with all the bullets there but no cartridge cases. The one dog tag that I have found was German.This I checked out with the Deutsche Kriegsgraberfursorge.The man died ,but was not "missing". This tag is now in the hands of his descendants.

Keeping bones disgusts me. I've found the remains of one soldier (French).This was reported to the Gendarmarie and they took over.I did once find part of a human finger bone at Ieper.The (then)superintendant of Bedford House cemetery buried it in the soil covering the grave of an unknown.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

Just a note of warning to the uninitiated!

Don't forget that as well as the moral/legal aspects of this subject,there is also the physical danger of 90 year old artifacts.Every year people in the battlefield areas are killed/maimed/injured by items that have surfaced after all this time.Explosives get more volatile with age (I've actually seen an 85 year old Mills bomb go off and am glad I wasn't holding it!)and there is always the risk of tetanus.

Not wanting to be a "killjoy" and deprive anyone of the excitement if a "find", but if you're unsure, DON'T TOUCH!!!!.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

One of my strangest finds (because of where it was found) was a (fired)1917 dated .303 cartridge case found in the gutter in Cassel after a particularly heavy rainstorm.

What was a fired case doing here? (unless it was a relic of the fighting of 1940 - but did the British Army issue 23 year old bullets?)

Dave.

[Andrew P]

Unfortunately my first and only visit to the Western Front was back in 1997.

The tyranny of distance and exchange rates

But the only thing I collected when I was there was a nail in my hire car's tyre.

At Anzac Cove last year while walking through Shrapnel Gully found some shrapnel balls and near Baby 700 a cartridge case.

We pretty much stumbled over these items as we didn't go looking for anything.

I think it was in Les Carlyon's recent book 'Gallipoli', he mentions that a friend of his while near Chunuk Bair slipped down a slope but ended up coming to rest near the remains of a trench periscope.

Cheers

Andrew

[Christina Holstein]

It should perhaps be pointed out that in France - I can't speak for Belgium - all war debris belongs to the state and high fines and penalties can be applied to anyone caught removing it. You might be given stuff by a farmer but strictly speaking it's not his to give and if the police decide to make a case of it, they can. Under the legislation in question, fines for possession of anything that is or has been explosive, or is part of something that is or has been explosive, or was used to support or carry such an article can rise to 50,000FF (this is the rate from about 4 years ago) and/or several months imprisonment. I've got the details if anybody wants them. I'm not saying that the police would always apply those penalties but they have the power to do so if they want to. Metal detecting is absolutely illegal in any case.

Having said that, with years of walking in the Argonne, Verdun and St. Mihiel areas we've seen all sorts of interesting stuff. The most exciting, I think, was the eagle from a pickelhaube of a Prussian guard artillery regiment that my son pulled out of the bole of a fallen tree in the depths of the Argonne about three years ago - still partly gilded. It's a really beautiful thing. Views on collecting differ very much. One of my local historical groups in the Argonne absolutely forbids anyone on a walk with the group to pick up debris. They regard it as belonging to the men who fought there and a memory of them that must remain where it is. Not everyone's view, I know. I take photos, but I leave stuff where it is.

Christina Holstein.

[Fabiansson]

Graham Greene wrote somewhere, that time grants a poetical shimmer to a battlefield.

The material remains of the history give it a contemporary reality, something tangible, that the history is not just in history books. Donovan Webster describes this in his "Aftermath. The Remnants of War", when he goes along with a disarming patrol in the Verdun forests and comes across all sorts of battlefield debris on the ground:

"It is almost lunch time, so the other démineurs head toward the trucks, too, picking up shells as they go. There is a shell at the edge of an explosion crater. And another over there, in the trench, next to that rusted canteen. As I follow Bélot through this forest, World War I seems more recent - and far more real - than Neil Armstrong´s stroll across the moon." Donovan Webster: "Aftermath. The Remnants of War" (1996, 1998), p 17.

But it is hard to keep the battlefield atmosphere back home. The British journalist Christopher Long talked in similar vain in a radio program about Somme, in London News Radio (1996):

"Combing the land for tarnished brass buckles, bullet cases, the rusted remains of a .303 rifle and all the rest of the detritus of war can become obsessive. But these are incontrovertible mud-covered evidence in one's own hand that it did indeed all happen - even if, like picking up seashells, they become dull and lifeless when you get them home."

Apart from their value as indicators of sites, and apart from the suggestive effect the old battlefield debris give by themselves, their ample quantity in the fields, along the roads, in the gardens and in museums etc., clearly, more than any history book can tell, illustrate the Western Front’s unique kind of battle circumstances.

When the material remains of the battles disappear, one after another, by thousands of innocent (?) battlefield tourists as W.F.A. members like ourselves, scrapping the surface for souveniers, the particular feeling Webster describes above will disappear. Compare battlefields as Waterloo etc. since long without any physical evidence of battle! All who visited the Western Front dring the 1970s or earlier give accounts of a completely other Western Front at that time. What kind of Western Front will our children see? Something like Waterloo?

If battlefield artefacts are separated from their historical context and archaeological provenance they become merely items to satisfy the collector’s fetish. We all, almost unanimous, dislike rich art collectors who buy up art, putting it in their private vaults, not to mention collectors who buy up looted archaeological object, putting them in their secret collections. Cultural heritage is general and public, and the remains of the Western Front is cultural heritage indeed. The archaeology of the Western Front should not be confused with deeds of the scroungers, the looters, the pot-hunters, the treasure hunters or the pillagers!

Nils Fabiansson

[Mark A]

Interesting quotes from that article Nils but I think your case is overstated. I think a bayonet destined for a farmers scrapheap or a sharpnel ball found at the edge of a field and then lovingly displayed is a million miles away from the systematic pillaging of battlefield relics for profit.