Cap Badge Identification

[joflint]

Can anyone help me identify this cap badge? The man in the centre of the photo was in the Tank Regiment but not sure about the man on the right.

Can you also confirm the man on the left is wearing an 'honourable discharge' badge?

Many thanks

Jo

[Staffsyeoman]

South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales' Volunteers). Can't make out the badge on the lapel - needs enlarging.

[joflint]

South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales' Volunteers). Can't make out the badge on the lapel - needs enlarging.

This is the best i can do and i can't see it makes any sense at all but maybe to the trained eye there is something there? Do you know anything about the badge the civilian is wearing?

Many thanks for all your help

[Staffsyeoman]

Ah... not the 'lapel badge' I was thinking of - that badge is a 'shoulder title' and if it belongs to the hat on the chair it should say "S.LANCASHIRE".

The lapel badge of the man sitting down could be of interest. I thought for a moment he was not a civilian and that he might actually be in 'hospital blues' - the uniform worn by soldiers undergoing treatment, which was a pale blue colour with white lining - by virtue of the cap on his knee (you wore your own headdress) - but on reflection it belongs to the soldier in the middle, who I think is Tank Corps (dating the picture after July 1917) - the badge on the hat on the knee looks to be the right shape.

[squirrel]

As does the badge on the right sleeve of the chap in the middle - I wonder if the one on the left has seen service and it is a cap badge he is wearing on his lapel?

[joflint]

Ah... not the 'lapel badge' I was thinking of - that badge is a 'shoulder title' and if it belongs to the hat on the chair it should say "S.LANCASHIRE".

The lapel badge of the man sitting down could be of interest. I thought for a moment he was not a civilian and that he might actually be in 'hospital blues' - the uniform worn by soldiers undergoing treatment, which was a pale blue colour with white lining - by virtue of the cap on his knee (you wore your own headdress) - but on reflection it belongs to the soldier in the middle, who I think is Tank Corps (dating the picture after July 1917) - the badge on the hat on the knee looks to be the right shape.

So am i looking for a Sth Lancs soldier do you think? I just can not understand why the 2 men are photographed together. (I think) The man in the middle is my Grt Uncle (born and bred London)and i think the man on the left is possibly the brother of my grt grandmothers 2nd husband (who was gassed quite badly - and hence why i wondered if it was an honourable discharge badge) and i have no idea who the other man is. Is it likely the 2 regiments (Tanks and Sth Lancs) could have met and thus the men befriended? I have no reason to believe that my family 'travelled' even around England so am confused if the chap standing is Sth Lancs. The only other 'link' i have to go on is that my Grt Uncle was married to a woman whose maiden name was Jerram. Is there any way i can look up the Jerrams in WWi and maybe see if any of their regiments go some way to matching the 'anonymous' cap badge?!

I can not see any lapel markings on either man so only gave you what there was. It's impossible to make out the wording at all but i thought it might be worth a shot!!

The man in the middle (if it IS who i think it is) was def Tank Corps 1916-1920. I have added another family photo which contains 2 of the 3 same people (Tanks Reg man and civilian) and wondered if this photo might be able to guide your thoughts on the civilian lapel badge. Note the man on the right in this photo wears one too! I think this photo is earlier because they just seem younger. The lady on the left sitting down is my Grt Grandfather's wife. My grt Grndfthr died in April 1915 and was 2nd Btn East Surrey. We have always assumed the man in the middle is the Tank Corps brother and not East Surrey brother but can you shed any light? The men look alike but brothers do don't they? Is there any chance the man in this photo is NOT the man in the other photo at all?! Can a fresh pair of eyes give comment on whether the men in the 2 photos are the same man?

Thank you for all your thoughts and hard work. I had hit a brick wall and since finding this site a couple of days ago, i've found out loads and am hooked again!!!

[trenchtrotter]

The lapel badge appears to be the SWB badge (silver war badge) issued to service men who had served but were honourably discharged through sickness / wounds etc.

TT

[johntaylor]

Have just looked through the medal cards and there is indeed a Private S. Jerram who was in the 5th South Lancashire Regiment - discharged due to sickness on 4 October 1916. His medal information card is attached.

Does that name ring any bells?

John

[joflint]

Have just looked through the medal cards and there is indeed a Private S. Jerram who was in the 5th South Lancashire Regiment - discharged due to sickness on 4 October 1916. His medal information card is attached.

Does that name ring any bells?

John

Wow, i'm not sure. I know there was a Lilian Jerram (wife of my Grt Uncle) but i'm not sure beyond that. I had JOHN Jerram in my head but there's no reason why there couldn't be an S Jerram connected somewhere. I will try my best to find out through the family.

Very grateful for the reply and the information card. You guys on here are really good!

[Staffsyeoman]

Just one thought Jo- don't get too hung up on "why was in he the South Lancs, he was from London/Scotland/Outer Space" and so on. As the war progressed your home location became increasingly less relevant to which regiment you ended up in. It could reflect all manner of issues such as (before 1916) a recruting sergeant from that regiment; following a friend or a family tradition, or by later in the war which units needed drafts from the Training Battalions.

Units like the Tank Corps and the Machine Gun Corps (which had no Territorial Force - pre war volunteer - infrastructure) would take men from everywhere regardless of home.

[max7474]

I would point out that the medal card is for a pre-war TF soldier so this does not apply. He joined the Territorials 10months before the war started so he was living in the SLancs recruiting area.

[MBrockway]

(I think) The man in the middle is my Grt Uncle (born and bred London) and i think the man on the left is possibly the brother of my grt grandmothers 2nd husband

..

..

The only other 'link' i have to go on is that my Grt Uncle [wife's] maiden name was Jerram.

..

..

The man in the middle (if it IS who i think it is) was def Tank Corps 1916-1920. I have added another family photo which contains 2 of the 3 same people (Tanks Reg man and civilian)

The lady on the left sitting down is my Grt Grandfather's wife. My grt Grndfthr died in April 1915 and was 2nd Btn East Surrey.

..

..

We have always assumed the man in the middle is the Tank Corps brother and not East Surrey brother but can you shed any light?

Jo,

1. It would REALLY help us if you gave some actual surnames to these people
2. Could you explain the relationships a bit more clearly? There seems to be a generation difference as you talk about your Great Grandparents and your Great Uncle. Ordinarily a great uncle would be the sibling of one of your grandparents, but it looks here like this "Great Uncle" is more likely to be the sibling of one of your great grandparents. I'm also very confused by your Great Grandmother re-marrying - is that the widow of your Great Grandfather who died in 1915?

If we can piece this extended family unit together correctly and have their surnames, there's a good chance we can find them in the census records for you.

Cheers,

Mark

[joflint]

Jo,

1. It would REALLY help us if you gave some actual surnames to these people
2. Could you explain the relationships a bit more clearly? There seems to be a generation difference as you talk about your Great Grandparents and your Great Uncle. Ordinarily a great uncle would be the sibling of one of your grandparents, but it looks here like this "Great Uncle" is more likely to be the sibling of one of your great grandparents. I'm also very confused by your Great Grandmother re-marrying - is that the widow of your Great Grandfather who died in 1915?

If we can piece this extended family unit together correctly and have their surnames, there's a good chance we can find them in the census records for you.

Cheers,

Mark

Thanks Mark and sorry if i am unclear. I have 2 photos uploaded on here and for the purpose of this i will call them photo 1 (3 men and a boy) and photo 2 (3 men and 2 women)

My great grandfather is Henry Charles EPPS/2nd Btn East Surrey Reg/died 25/4/1915 (Ypres).

His brother was William John EPPS/Tank Regiment (1916-1920). He is the man in photo 1 and 2. The little boy standing with him in photo 1 is my grandfather aged about 4.

William John EPPS married Lilian JERRAM. Henry Charles EPPS married Elizabeth RICHES. She is the woman sitting in the centre of photo 2. I wondered if the man in the centre of photo was the man who died in Ypres (her husband Henry Charles EPPS) or her brother in law (William John EPPS). Since my original post i have found out that the SWB was awarded from 1917 (one is worn by each of the 2 men standing in photo 2)and so this photo is dated after Henry Charles died so the man must be William John Epps.

I was unsure who the 2 other men in each photo were so i started making assumptions. I wondered if the man standing on the right in photo 1 (with the stick) was Liliam JERRAM's brother? Long shot but couldn't think who else it might be.

Following the earlier threads and some research of the cap badge in the photo, someone searched the Sth Lancs reg for Jerram and found S JERRAM discharged in 1916 due to illness. I have since asked the family about an S JERRAM and there was Sidney Jerram (b1891) but no one knows what happened to him (if he died young or whatever).

The Epps family centred around Wandsworth in London and i know a lot about them as far back as late 18thC. The Jerrams i know very little about but believe the came from London also (and so was confused when someone mentioned the cap badge in the photo was Sth Lancs). They are quite distantly connected (Great Grandfather's brother's wife's side of the family) but am interested in anything i can find especially about Henry Charles EPPS and William John EPPS military history. The photos have no date so i was interested to see if i could date the photos as well.

This is all i know in relation to these photos. As always, any help gratefully received

Jo

[johntaylor]

Here's the medal card for Henry Epps. William Epps to follow - I haven't shown the backs as they're blank

Here's the medal card for Henry Epps. William Epps to follow - I haven't shown the backs as they're blank

[johntaylor]

Here's the medal card for Henry Epps. William Epps to follow - I haven't shown the backs as they're blank

You probably have this already, but this is Sidney Jerram (born 1891) in the 1901 Census.

[johntaylor]

You probably have this already, but this is Sidney Jerram (born 1891) in the 1901 Census.

However I don't see any obvious connection with Lilian Jerram (born 1886) who was on the other side of the country in Wandsworth.

[johntaylor]

However I don't see any obvious connection with Lilian Jerram (born 1886) who was on the other side of the country in Wandsworth.

Actually I think I've just answered my own question (lucky really, since I seem to be the only person on this thread). If you turn over the page in the 1901 Census you find Lilian's brother Sidney - who was actually Sydney Victor Jerram, born 1897.

Actually I think I've just answered my own question (lucky really, since I seem to be the only person on this thread). If you turn over the page in the 1901 Census you find Lilian's brother Sidney - who was actually Sydney Victor Jerram, born 1897.

Here's the image.

[joflint]

Actually I think I've just answered my own question (lucky really, since I seem to be the only person on this thread). If you turn over the page in the 1901 Census you find Lilian's brother Sidney - who was actually Sydney Victor Jerram, born 1897.

Here's the image.

Thank you John. Now i just need to work out if this Sydney Jerram was the one in the Sth Lancs and if he IS the man in the photo!! Help much appreciated.

Actually I think I've just answered my own question (lucky really, since I seem to be the only person on this thread). If you turn over the page in the 1901 Census you find Lilian's brother Sidney - who was actually Sydney Victor Jerram, born 1897.

Here's the image.

Any idea what that road is? The catchement of 'Latchmere' is common to me as most of the EPPS family at one time lived in roads around this area but i can't make out this road name. I'll take any suggestions!!

Jo

[joflint]

Thank you John. Now i just need to work out if this Sydney Jerram was the one in the Sth Lancs and if he IS the man in the photo!! Help much appreciated.

Any idea what that road is? The catchement of 'Latchmere' is common to me as most of the EPPS family at one time lived in roads around this area but i can't make out this road name. I'll take any suggestions!!

Jo

I've ben asking questions before doing donkey work and i think i've worked it out as Sabine Road which still exists today. I hope you didn't go off looking before you read this. Sorry if you didn't get to this first. Jo

[MBrockway]

... since I seem to be the only person on this thread ...

Sorry John - I've been out all evening and only just back!

... and you have already done much of the census digging that I was expecting to do - nice one!

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

I've ben asking questions before doing donkey work and i think i've worked it out as Sabine Road which still exists today. I hope you didn't go off looking before you read this. Sorry if you didn't get to this first. Jo

Jo - that IS spooky - in the mid 1980s I lived in Battersea Park Road abut 200yds west of the Latchmere pub. That's about half a mile from Sabine Road!

Cheers,

Mark

[johntaylor]

Hi, I'm back online now - sorry I wasn't around to help decipher the census entry, but you're right, it is Sabine Road.

It's now clear that Sydney Victor Jerram, born 1897 in Wandsworth, wasn't in the South Lancs Regiment - I can say this with certainty because his service record survived the Blitz and shows that he joined the Royal Fusiliers on 25 April 1916. His occupation was optician, address 84 Sabine Road, next-of-kin Winifred May Jerram (sister) of the same address.

I haven't gone through the full file, but he later transferred to the Bedfordshire Regiment and then the Royal Engineers, and survived the war.

There was clearly another Sidney Jerram living in Lancashire, as the index to the 1911 Census shows the two of them, and he may have been the one in the South Lancs Regiment.

So the mystery remains - unless the cap badge is anything to do with the Royal Fusiliers? I can see some feathers...

John

[johntaylor]

Hmm... this is the Royal Fusiliers cap badge. Maybe not.

[Stebie9173]

The Tank Corps (No. 110357) William John Epps has service records on Ancestry... or have I missed someone stating that?

EDIT: ....and it's definitely him. Married to (crispy bit of page)..ian Gertrude Jerram, Wandsworth, 11-2-1911. 5 children.

Attested 20-1-1916, mobilised 3-2-1917. Posted to Royal Field Artillery, 3-2-1917. Transferred to Heavy Branche Machine Gun Corps, 2-7-1917. To France, 30-8-1917. Unclear service between 30-8-1917 and 14-2-1918, but posted to 6th Battalion, Tank Corps on 14-2-1918 to 25-1-1919. Ireland, 25-1-1919 to 18-9-1919. Posted to 17th Battalion Tank Corps, 15-2-1919.

He appears on the Roll of Honour of men who served with the 6th Battalion Tank corps in their History. The book notes that the 6th battalion was made up from 18 to 36 tanks on the 15-2-1918, so his transfer to the 6th Battalion was probably to help man this increase in tanks.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

W J Epps in the Surrey enlistment registers:

Steve.