Marching rates. How far?

[GlenBanna]

How far would troops be expected to march before they were transported by bus or train? What weight were they expected to carry?

Glen

[squirrel]

Fresh, trained troops, 15 to20 miles a day depending on the weather and circumstances and carrying about 60 odd pounds of kit

[GlenBanna]

Fresh, trained troops, 15 to20 miles a day depending on the weather and circumstances and carrying about 60 odd pounds of kit

That seems a very large weight to carry that distance. They must have been exhausted.

Glen

[jdajd]

Remembered hearing this somewhere:

The Army has not performed any official studies correlating injuries with equipment weight, but Chiarelli testified that a 72-pound load increases energy required by 40 percent and increasing the load by 20 percent from there raises the heart rate by 20 beats per minute.

"The distance marched in six hours decreases 1.24 miles for every 10 pounds over 40 pounds the soldier carries, and the time required to complete an obstacle course increases 10 to 15 percent for every additional 10 pounds carried," Chiarelli said.

Jon

[centurion]

That seems a very large weight to carry that distance. They must have been exhausted.

Glen

A large chunk of the weight would be the rifle and ammo. part of the training was the ability to do these sort of distances. Inemergency far longer distances have been covered and not just in WW1 (see the Light Division in the Peninsula and Yomping to Port Stanley in the Falklands more recently) our ancesters were rhady men

[Peter Shand]

I can't answer your question directly but can give you the example of the 8th Battalion of the Border Regiment as they made their way towards the Somme in June 1916. The War Diary records where they spent each stop. From Google Maps, using the walking distance feature, I calculate that, in the period from June 13 to July 1, they covered 108 kms (67.5 miles) in eight marches of varying length from 7.7 kms ( 4.8 miles) to one of 21.4 kms (13.4 miles). They marched on consecutive days on only two occasions, covering 26.5 kms (16.6 miles) in two days at the start of the march. However the battalion also completed the march with 24.2 kms (15.1 miles) on July 1 and 2, directly before going into battle on the morning of July 3rd.

I don't know whether any baggage was transported to lighten a man's load, but these men would be used to marching after 20 months of service, with 9 months in France and Flanders.

Perhaps other Pals can describe what the infantry men carried on a battalion move. I would be interested to know more about this aspect of the war.

Regards, Pete

[jhill]

As another example, when the 31st Canadian Battalion moved with its Division to the Somme in the first week of September 1916, they detrained at CANDAS enroute to BRICKFIELDS in the north part of ALBERT. After detraining they marched 2 3/4 hours to their first bivouac, and made up the the rest of the distance in two daily marches of about 5 hours each. As the crow flies the total distance is not 20 miles, but this worked out to something less than 15 miles a day.

Marching order did not usually include extra ammunition nor tools, and packs were usually (I think!) carried on wagons, but the load was still considerable. Stages were chosen short enough to allow time for things to go wrong. There was a limited number of roads, and each battalion had only a certain window of time alloted. Camps or billets had to be prepared, the battalion cookers had to preceed the main column so that a meal was ready at the stopping point, and so forth. There were always some stragglers, and arrangements had to be made for them. Each battalion had a couple of dozen wagons in its transport section, but it was always a tight fit getting all the stuff in.

Once in the forward area, camps were usually arranged so that units could get up to the line in five or six miles or so, but this varied quite a bit.

I am sure others can give examples where things were quite different.

[auchonvillerssomme]

What would have made up the 60lbs of kit the men would have carried 20 miles and under what circumstances?

I could see that being a one off but not a common occurence, like many on here I have marched long distances carrying a lot of kit and know that 20 miles is actually one hell of a march to complete in a day carrying 60lbs.

Mick

[jhill]

What would have made up the 60lbs of kit the men would have carried 20 miles and under what circumstances?

I could see that being a one off but not a common occurence, like many on here I have marched long distances carrying a lot of kit and know that 20 miles is actually one hell of a march to complete in a day carrying 60lbs.

Mick

I have seen a number of very precise lists of kit with weights. Unfortunately, they do not always agree with one another. One list is here and here . It accompanies my post regarding the 31st Canadian Battalion. It is entltled "Normal Fighting Outfit for N.C.O.s and Men". Marching outfit would not be so heavy. Perhaps other lists at other times may have been heavier.

[Eirian]

War diary of the Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment, for 30th November 1917, soon after they arrived in Italy, says:

". . . marched about 120 miles in 8 days." (This works out at an average of 15 miles per day.)

and

"Many of those who suffered on the march were men from Employ in Base Camps &c who had had no training in marching or carrying packs. The march discipline & bearing throughout was excellent. The Drums which had been organized but a fortnight before leaving Flanders did much to help the march."

Eirian

[squirrel]

Distance marched depends on a number of factors:

Total distance to be covered

Condition of troops

Length of time allowed for move

Daylight hours

Weather

Road conditions

Reading some books covering the training periods of units, more time seemed to be spent on route marches than anything else and there are many songs and poems about marching.

As an example, Infantry Units of the 47th (2nd London) Division marched from their drill halls to St Albans over 2 days in August 1914 with an overnight stay at Stanmore. That's the thick end of 15 miles or so a day for most of them and they had only been embodied for a couple of weeks.

[andrew pugh]

Hi All.

Quote war diary 24th Bn R/Fusiliers 1917 March (not a pun!).

24th marched from bruce huts to Herissart distance 11 and a half miles.

26th marched to Gezaincourt 11 miles.

27th marched Gezaincourt to Haute-Cote distance 14 and three quarter miles.( wet /snow storms)

28th marched Haute-Cote to Gauchin-Verloingt distance 9 miles.

30th marched to billets at Cauchy-a-latoup a distance of 12 miles. All in crap weather.There are other such distances mentioned in the diary like the one made near Donvaast the distance i cannot remember at the moment, but they then went straight into battle after that hike.

regards Andy.

[truthergw]

I am dubious as to 60 pounds when setting out for a route march in FSMO. I think that sort of weight was carried into battle and it consisted of extra ammunition and equipment required for fighting. Bombs, picks and spades etc. Units marching from rear areas to rear areas such as preparatory movements prior to the Somme, seem to have expected to cover 10 to 15 miles. Occasionally packs were carried by wagons as were men who had fallen out for some reason. The Poilu habitually carried a heavier load than the Tommy, but marched much further.

[Muerrisch]

Quite right. To march all day with 60lbs would have been exceptional ... no sane commander would order this except for dire necessity. As early as August 1914 one good battalion ordered its men to throw away all but necessities [rifle, bayonet, lots of ammunition, water] to maximise march distance and combat-readiness.

[Moonraker]

Very impressive figures, say I with feeling. Yesterday I walked about 20 miles in light clothing, carrying a rucksack with some food and a light anorak in it. I started at 5am, so escaping much of the day's heat. Today I'm knackered (perhaps partly due to the antihistamines I took afterwards to combat the effects of a dozen horsefly bites).

Sometimes when I'm walking along I think what it would be like wearing a heavy uniform and hob-nail boots and carrying a rifle and kit-bag, with limited food and drink and probably after - and before - a poor night's rest.

Moonraker

[GlenBanna]

Thanks everybody for many extremely interesting replies. Perhaps the truth lies in the middle where large packs were carried short distances with longer rests. For long marches into action lighter packs meant faster longer distances. These men were on average smaller than todays average male and were less healthy so I am sceptical they were carrying over 60 lbs for twenty miles.The 29th Division marched betweeen the 18th of November 1918 and December 10th 1918 178 miles to Cologne presumably with full kit.

Glen

[stevem49]

God gave the army transport to carry most of the equipment Men would usually carry their personal kit - rifle, gas mask, webbing,water etc.

sm

[Jack Sheldon]

It is surprising how much can be carried and how far if the men involved are marching fit. Naturally it is preferable not to knacker everyone by making them wear themselves out before battle is joined - hence the move to fully mechanised and later armoured infantry in the British Army. However, I can tell you from one who did it for a living, that modern battleloads are extremely heavy. Each item may weigh less but there are many more things to carry than the infantry did in the Great War, so it all adds up. Skeleton order tends only to be used in very restricted circumstances. A modern infantryman debuses from his Warrior or similar wearing CEFO (Complete Equipment Fighting Order), which does leave very much change out of 20 kg and you have to take into account the weight of body armour, helmet, combat suit and boots, none of which are made from thistledown. CEMO (Complete Equipment Marching Order) is very much heavier, because it contains spare kit, such as boots, sleeping gear etc. In the days when I was a lad, for the carrier of a GPMG, light(!) mortar, Carl Gustav or an A41 radio with spare batteries, the weights were nudging towards a dizzying 100lbs - and so was that of the platoon commander. By no means all men of a platoon could carry these kinds of loads, but GPMG gunners in particular took a special pride in their ability to hack it. The longest I ever lugged this amount of stuff was ten days in the Brecon Beacons and it was not easy. If I tripped over carrying the radio, I was stuck on the ground like a dead beetle until someone came to haul me up!

Jack

[NigelS]

According to 'The History of the London Rifle Brigade 1859 - 1919', Pre war, on the 18th April 1914, 2 officers, 5 sergeants and 53 O/Rs of the LRB marched 52.5 miles from London to Brighton in 14 hours and 23 minutes, giving - allowing for halts of 1 hour and 39 minutes - 12 hours 44 minutes actual marching time and a rate of 4.12 miles per. Apparently this event received wide coverage in the press and questions as to what purpose it had achieved; one of the officers involved was, then Capt, RH Husey, who later as a Lieut Col, Husey was able, apparently, to use the event to inspire/motivate the men in his command in a war time situation as related in this extract from 'The History':

For instance in 1917 the 1st battalion made the long 'trek' from Lavetie to Arras. The winter had been spent in the trenches, and the men were by no means fit for long marches on bad roads. On the second day 19 miles had to be covered, and the battalion was marching in reat of the Brigade. After the first hour's march the roadside was scattered with men who had fallen out from the units in front. This began to have a bad effect on the men of the LRB, many of whom had only recently been posted to the battalion from other regiments, and the second-in-command and the M.O., who were marching in rear, had a busy time persuading men to keep going. At the end of the march only eighteen men, about a quarter of the number dropped by other battalions, had fallen out, but this was not the LRB standard. That night Lieut.-Col Husey interviewed the defaulters, and next morning addressed 'a few words' on marching to the battalion before it moved off for another long march. He said he had heard the remark, 'its all very well for senior officers to talk about marching; they always ride a horse and don't know how heavy a pack feels after the first five or six miles.' for the information of those who were unaware of the fact, he told them he had marched 52 1/2 miles on his own feet, carrying a pack most of the way, in 14 hours and 23 minutes, and therfore from his own experience knew what a stiff and trying march felt like. With a few other remarks, which were characteristic of him, he conveyed to the men that he knew all there was to know about marching. The next day only three men fell out, their feet being so bad that rhey had to go into hospital

As this is from the regimental history, the events described may be being viewed with slightly 'rose tinted' glasses!

The 'trek' from Laventie to Arras (given as 96) mile took place on 8 consecutive days (1st to 8th March 1917) and included an encounter with a violent snowstorm on the final day

Also given in 'The History', which might be of interest, is this list of kit - which would probably have accurately reflected the weight of equipment carried at the front - which men were expected to carry when undergoing training with the 3rd Bn LRB in late 1917, Note that rifles and bayonets are not included in the totals, nor is there any mention of an allowance for personal kit (ie for washing/shaving gear etc).

PLATOON TRAINING

Dress & Equipment of a Rifleman

1. Fighting order. (Equipment: haversack on back, entrenching tool at side) 12 ½ lbs

2. Small box respirator 3 ¼ lbs

3. Field dressing ---

4. (7 ¾) pick or (3 ½) shovel 3 ½ lbs

5. Ground Sheet (Cardigan inside) 3 ½ lbs

6. Two Grenades, with rods in side pockets 3 ½ lbs

7. In Haversack: Spare water-bottle, iron rations (sewn up), days’ rations, 1 pair socks , cap comforter, breech stick (per section) 8 lbs

8. Two sandbags ¾ lbs

9. 120 rounds of ammunition (24 metal blocks) 8 lbs

10. Mess tin, with Tommy’s Cooker inside 1 ½ lbs

11. Extra Flannelette in pocket ---

12. Identity disc ---

13. Steel Helmet (red)* 2 lbs

14. Flare (improvised 5’’, rod) in right breast pocket ¼ lbs

15. Wire-cutters and frog (2 per section) 2 lbs

16. Vigilant periscope in left breast pocket ( 2 per section) ¼ lbs

17. P. bomb (2 per section) 1¼ lbs

Total 50 ¾ lbs

NOTE. – No cleaning materials, no Rifle Grenade ammunition, and no pay-book or documents concerning operations. No Knife, fork or spoon.

BOMBER

1 to 8 and 10 to 17, as above 42 ¼ lbs

13. Steel Helmet (black)* (Note – weight included above) ----

18. Bomb bucket with 5 bombs (No. 5) 8 lbs

9. 50 rounds of S.A.A. 3 ¼ lbs

Total 50 ¾ lbs

RIFLE BOMBER

1 to 8 and 10 to 17, as above 42 ¼ lbs

13. Steel Helmet (yellow)* (Note – weight included above) ----

18. Bomb bucket with 5 bombs (23S.) and rod and R.G ammunition (25 rounds) 11 ½ lbs

19. Cup attachment in side pocket ½ lbs

9. 50 rounds of S.A.A. 3 ¼ lbs

Total 57 ½ lbs

LEWIS GUNNER

1 to 8 and 10 to 17, as above 42 ¼ lbs

13. Steel Helmet (blue)* (Note – weight included above) ----

9. 50 rounds of S.A.A. 3 ¼ lbs

20. Lewis gun equipment. (see L.G officer, or S.S.143 ---- .

Total 45 ½ lbs

*NB the colour coded helmets were to aid identification during training

I was also a bit surprised by the ommision of a knife, fork and spoon; were the men expected to eat using a bayonet or their fingers; maybe it was simply because it was for training, but then the same could be said of a lot of the other kit.

NigelS

[squirrel]

Knife, fork, spoon, razor, hair brush and comb, lather brush, flannel, towel, housewife etc would have been carried in the haversack.

Of course, the clever ones ditched the knife and fork and carried the spoon stuck in their puttees..........

[charlesmessenger]

Perhaps worth mentioning that it was standard practice to have a 10 minutes breather every hour and that there was also a lunch break. The company cookers would accompany the battalion with the cooks stirring the stew as they marched.

Charles M

[squirrel]

Lunch for the Officers - Dinner for the men.

[GlenBanna]

In the war diary of thr 5th Royal Scots landing in Gallipoli, it lists items carried by each man. In the pack contents ,between the socks and the biscuits is "1 housewife". What is this?

Glen

[Andrew Upton]

In the pack contents ,between the socks and the biscuits is "1 housewife". What is this?

Glen

Sewing kit, containing needles, thread, spare buttons, etc.

[truthergw]

Don't forget the button stick, Andrew. Usually folded in with the hussif. Wouldn't do to get sniped on a foreign shore with manky buttons.