How were Regimental Numbers issued?

[jaskie]

My grandfather was Pte James Livesey, 24202; he served with 19th Bn. The King’s {Liverpool Regiment}, KIA 29th July 1916.

[1] I would like to know his approx. date and place of enlistment. Does his Reg. number give a hint of this?

[2] Were regimental numbers issued sequentially?

[3] Does the issue of numbers relate to place of enlistment?

[4] Were reg. numbers re-used, i.e. if a soldier was discharged or transferred to another unit, was his former number issued to another soldier?

Jaskie

[Graham Stewart]

Jaskie,

The attached site will reveal the origian of regimental numbering from 1881-1918. You will need to search for extracts from Kings Regulations and Army Orders, which will help you understand how the system worked;-

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/

[sw63]

My grandfather was Pte James Livesey, 24202; he served with 19th Bn. The King's {Liverpool Regiment}, KIA 29th July 1916.

[1] I would like to know his approx. date and place of enlistment. Does his Reg. number give a hint of this?

[2] Were regimental numbers issued sequentially?

[3] Does the issue of numbers relate to place of enlistment?

[4] Were reg. numbers re-used, i.e. if a soldier was discharged or transferred to another unit, was his former number issued to another soldier?

Jaskie

Hi Jaskie,

Your Grandfather's number is one of the earlish ones for Liverpool Pals so it is likely he joined when (or soon after) they were formed in August 1914.

A very good reference source is Graham Maddox "The Liverpool Pals". Published by Pen & Sword and going for £25.00. You can order from their website:

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1539

There are usually copies for sale on ebay ( eg. item no. 290326938364 currently on offer for £12.99).

The whole thing about service numbers is that there were different rules for regulary army, TF and service battalions. This wasn't properly sorted-out until 1920 with the introduction of unique 7-digit numbers.

A soldier's number can indicate when he joined, but not where.

I think I'm right in saying that services numbers were issued sequentially at battalion level and were not re-used within that battalion. What can be confusing is that these service numbers were only unique at battalion level. Soldiers serving in different battalions within the same regiment could have the same number. This is certainly true for Territorial Force soldiers and I think it is also true for Service Battalions.

Unique regimental numbers did not come in until later (1917 for TF soldiers and then 1920 for the army as a whole). Up until this point soldiers transferring between battalions would have to recieve a new number and his old number would would not be re-used in his old unit.

Regarding the Liverpool Pals, I am fairly sure that the four battalions shared a unique number series between them. By this I mean that your grandfather's number was unique to the Liverpool Pals, but there would have been other soldiers in the King's Regt with the number 24202.

I'm sure someone will be able to confirm or refute this.

Hope I haven't confused you!

Simon

[Muerrisch]

Hi Jaskie,

Your Grandfather's number is one of the earlish ones for Liverpool Pals so it is likely he joined when (or soon after) they were formed in August 1914.

A very good reference source is Graham Maddox "The Liverpool Pals". Published by Pen & Sword and going for £25.00. You can order from their website:

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1539

There are usually copies for sale on ebay ( eg. item no. 290326938364 currently on offer for £12.99).

The whole thing about service numbers is that there were different rules for regulary army, TF and service battalions. This wasn't properly sorted-out until 1920 with the introduction of unique 7-digit numbers.

A soldier's number can indicate when he joined, but not where.

I think I'm right in saying that services numbers were issued sequentially at battalion level and were not re-used within that battalion. What can be confusing is that these service numbers were only unique at battalion level. Soldiers serving in different battalions within the same regiment could have the same number. This is certainly true for Territorial Force soldiers and I think it is also true for Service Battalions.

Unique regimental numbers did not come in until later (1917 for TF soldiers and then 1920 for the army as a whole). Up until this point soldiers transferring between battalions would have to recieve a new number and his old number would would not be re-used in his old unit.

Hope I haven't confused you!

Simon

Hmmmmm! Sorry, there are misconceptions here. You could do with the definitive book by Langley and Edwards!

Excluding the TF and the SR, numbers were [should have been] issued at regimental level, not battalion. This series was [should have been] common to the Service battalions who, in the army's eyes, were regular soldiers on a short engagement.

However, it was possible [commonplace] for a regimental number to be duplicated, triplicated, even xxxxicated because there were no rules in place for TF or SR numbering. Thus, each battalion could number in a different manner. Taking the RWF as an example:

a single shared series for 1st and 2nd battalion and ALL their service battalions, a different series for the 3rd [sR], and different again for each of the TF battalions 4th 5th 6th 7th.

You are wrong in that a change of battalion, if within a regiment, should NOT have meant a change of number.

Apart from that ........

[Paul Nixon]

Unique regimental numbers did not come in until later (1917 for TF soldiers and then 1920 for the army as a whole). Up until this point soldiers transferring between battalions would have to recieve a new number and his old number would would not be re-used in his old unit.

Regarding the Liverpool Pals, I am fairly sure that the four battalions shared a unique number series between them. By this I mean that your grandfather's number was unique to the Liverpool Pals, but there would have been other soldiers in the King's Regt with the number 24202.

Regarding the TF infantry, I suppose you could argue that as the TF undertook the exercise of re-numbering there was an opportunity (which was wasted) to issue unique numbers. Unfotunately that wasn't so and so you'll still see many men with an identical six digit number. For instance, the 5th King's renumbered within the range 200001-240000, so did the 5th HLI, the 4th Hants, the 4th Gordons etc.

The 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th Battalions did share the same number series which, in turn was a block of numbers taken from the series which had originally begun at number 1 in July 1881 for the two regular battalions.

In terms of an enlistment date, I'd put it at late December 1914 or early January 1915. 24302 joined the 19th King's on the 4th January 1915.

Paul

Graham - thanks for the link. Cheque's in the post.

[Guest PeterEmery]

Jaskie

My great uncle was also in the 19th Kings, 3rd Liverpool Pals. He was killed a day after your grandfather, in the push on the 30th, and is buried at Guillemont Road Cemetary. His number was 21607, and I believe he joined up very early on after Kitchener's call. However, his number is several thousand lower than your grandfather's, and some Pals were several thousand lower still. For example, 15741, was in the 17th, so I'm a little confused about the numbers being allocated. That's a gap of 9000 in total for 4000 men...

I suspect your grandfather was killed as the battalion came up to the line on the 29th, as they were subjected to heavy shelling. Can you confirm that?

Peter

[Paul Nixon]

However, his number is several thousand lower than your grandfather's, and some Pals were several thousand lower still. For example, 15741, was in the 17th, so I'm a little confused about the numbers being allocated. That's a gap of 9000 in total for 4000 men...

It's a reasonable observation Peter, explained by the fact that in between numbering for the 19th and 20th Battalions, numbers were allocated to men joining the 11th, 12th, 13th & 14th Battalions. The 17th, 18th & 19th Battalions were all formed in August 1914, the 20th was formed in October. So you have a gap of a couple of months when numbers were being allocated to non Pals battalions. I hope that makes sense.

Paul

[jaskie]

Thank you, Simon, Grumpy, Paul & Peter for all your replies. I must admit the numbering system still isn't clear because of the great disparity in the numbers. The numbers below are taken from Pals servicemen mentioned in Graham Maddox's 'The Liverpool Pals':

19th Battalion:

Sgt W Milner 15491

Cpl V Holt 16080

L/Cpl. Tunnington 16098

Cpl EG Williams 17518

Pte E Winn 17993

Pte GS Hawnaur 21515

Peter Emery's gt'uncle 21607

My G'father 24202

Pte WB Owens 25576

Also 2 servicemen mentioned by Maddox in the 18th Pals had numbers 24620 & 24644.

Admittedly I have used a very small sample.

This numbering would make more sense to me, if different batches of numbers had been issued by several recruitment centres in Lancashire. Besides Liverpool, there were probably recruitment centres in the larger towns, eg. Lancaster, Preston, Chorley, Wigan, Manchester. IF this was the case, it would be good to find out the numbering system, as in the absence of so many Attestation forms, places and dates of enlistment could be estimated.

In terms of an enlistment date, I'd put it at late December 1914 or early January 1915. 24302 joined the 19th King's on the 4th January 1915.

Paul

Paul, your estimate of December 1914 for enlistment does tie in with a scrap of information that I have been trying to verify. Do you happen to know your great uncle's place of enlistment, or where he was living at that time? My grandfather lived in Chorley.

My great uncle was also in the 19th Kings, 3rd Liverpool Pals. He was killed a day after your grandfather, in the push on the 30th, and is buried at Guillemont Road Cemetary. His number was 21607 ... ... ...

I suspect your grandfather was killed as the battalion came up to the line on the 29th, as they were subjected to heavy shelling. Can you confirm that?

Peter

Peter, I dearly wish I could confirm that, but I do believe that to be so. There are no surviving records of his service. His medal index card doesn't show his DOD.

Initial notification of his death to my g'mother (Army Form B.104-82) shows DOD 30th July at "Place not stated". The 30th July date also appears on "UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919" which I think originated from the initial casualty lists.

But the Regimental Secretary of the King's Regiment, and the Cwlth. War Graves Commission give his DOD 29th July 1916. Oral family tradition has him "killed by shell fire" and "killed by a sniper near Trones Wood'.

Maddox also has his DOD 29/7/1916 in his Appdx.II - List of Liverpool Pals who died on active service during the Gt. War. He only shows 2 men KIA on the 29th in the 19th Pals. Maddox says "This list has been compiled from a number of different sources, but mainly from the records held by The Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which is the most reliable source for details of Great War casualities .... "

Jaskie