WR- prefix Royal Engineers service number

[ruthfrench]

Hi - newbie here.

I wonder if you could help me. One of my ancestors served with the Royal Engineers in the ROD, after transferring from the South Lancs Regiment. Luckily his war records are on ancestry so I have been able to garner a little bit for informaiton, but the problem is I don't know much about military history and therefore don't really understand it.

Charles Corden (b. 1885)

7.9.14 - 4.9.16: South Lancs Regiment Cpl 20216

4.9.16 - 1919: RE L/Cpl WR WR/280349, RE L/Cpl 198557 (posted Sapper 5.9.16) Trade: Driver

23.04.19: Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve

I gather that he served with the Railway Operations Division and on one certificate of trade proficiency it states Company: 6. I can't find any trace of a 6th company in Railway Construction but there was a Light Railway 6th company (as detailed here: http://www.1914-1918.net/6lroc.html) - were Light Railways classed as ROD? Could he possibly have been with them?

Thanks for any help you can give me!

Ruth

[kenf48]

His civilian occupation was a railway fireman (foreman?), he enlisted with the 11th (Service) Battalion (St Helens Pioneers) and went overseas with the main body on the 6th November 1915. Just before going overseas he reverted to private from L/Cpl at his own request.

He qualified as an engine loco driver, unfortunately there is a note that his original form which might list his postings was destroyed by fire in November 1917 however his discharge document shows he was serving with 6th Company R.O.D. It appears he qualified as a driver on the date of transfer to the RE. I suspect he was probably attached prior to his transfer as his rate of pay was enhanced and the transfer was dependent on reaching a certain level of skill. A later document shows he further enhanced his qualification from skilled to superior, the highest grade. I think you are right in that he was with the Light Railway Company rather than the broad gauge,

This article on light railways may be of interest http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-on-land/73-weapons-equipment-uniforms/354-light-rail.html

Michael Portillo's current TV series (I think it was Wednesday's episode) which should be on iPlayer had a piece on the light railways.

Ken

[ruthfrench]

His civilian occupation was a railway fireman (foreman?), he enlisted with the 11th (Service) Battalion (St Helens Pioneers) and went overseas with the main body on the 6th November 1915. Just before going overseas he reverted to private from L/Cpl at his own request.

He qualified as an engine loco driver, unfortunately there is a note that his original form which might list his postings was destroyed by fire in November 1917 however his discharge document shows he was serving with 6th Company R.O.D. It appears he qualified as a driver on the date of transfer to the RE. I suspect he was probably attached prior to his transfer as his rate of pay was enhanced and the transfer was dependent on reaching a certain level of skill. A later document shows he further enhanced his qualification from skilled to superior, the highest grade. I think you are right in that he was with the Light Railway Company rather than the broad gauge,

This article on light railways may be of interest http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-on-land/73-weapons-equipment-uniforms/354-light-rail.html

Michael Portillo's current TV series (I think it was Wednesday's episode) which should be on iPlayer had a piece on the light railways.

Ken

Thanks for this.

When you say he was 'attached' prior to his transfer, what does that actually mean in practise?

[kenf48]

The 11th Bn South Lancashire was a 'pals' or as it was called locally at the time a 'comrades' battalion including for example many men from the glassworks.

I believe it was one of Lord Derby's Battalions.

Charles Corden was a railway employee and worked as a 'fireman (stoker) ' [1911]. Although he would have footplate experience he was not a qualified driver on attestation in the Army. I don't know how long it took to train an Army light railway engine driver but the observation he was 'attached' assumes he received some training before his examination. Having passed the test as 'skilled' on the 4th September he obviously had an aptitude and was transferred to the RE the same day. The article linked to above notes that the initial recruits came about as a result of trawl through the Army, in his records this is probably the Authority referred to in the entry concerning his transfer i.e. I think its ACI or Army Council Instruction (it's either that or an Army Order) A9997 dated 17 July.

So speculatively he responded/volunteered/was selected for training as a driver and sent for some sort of training in August which presumably had he failed he would have returned to unit as 'not suitable'. Unfortunately all subsequent postings just show ROD BEF although the evidence for No 6 Company is persuasive.

Some great photos on this earlier thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69920&hl=

The war diary for the South Lancs can be downloaded from TNA for £3.30 which is good value and although unlikely to mention him by name may shed some light

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7353620

The diary for the 6 Coy is within a section or piece that is currently unavailable as it's in the process of being digitised - scroll down for the detail it's the eighth one on the page

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=WO%2095%2F4056

Ken

[dcrossman]

Hi All

I've been following this WR/ prefix post with interest.

My g-grandfather was RE (Sapper Tom Watton).

His Medal roll card clearly shows RE Railways. His numbers were WR/276797 and 309069 (prior to that he was 2nd (Cyc) Hants Regt. We don't have any service records.

He was attested at Longmoor (railways coincidence?) in Dec 1915. He served overseas (France) and discharged (or disembodied) in July 1919 with his Certificate of Demobilization Z21 form showing WR Troops Royal Engineers.

I did the usual CWGC cross check of similar numbers (both WR and the 309069) and came up with mostly Railway operating Coy as units. I also tried to check the 6 names either side of him on the Medal Role on ancestry (they all have sequential WR and 6 digit numbers) but couldn't find any service records.

Does anyone have any clearer idea of the WR/276 sequence of service IDs?

I also has this great 1916 or 17 era picture of him which shows a few men with wound stripes. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ac/ae/70/acae7005bc800cae77f96ca74f519d6f.jpg

[Terry_Reeves]

dcrossman

His number does indicate he was with a railway unit, and Longmoor was the depot for Railway troops. His medal index card indicates he did not enter a theatre of war until after 1915, however his first RE service number is one that was issued in 1917. Was he a pre-war railway man? His rank of Sapper indicates he was a skilled man and therefore and this would suggest he had skills in that area of employment.

Given that he attested in December 1915, I wonder if he had his service deferred. In 1917 many railwaymen were called up as a result of the Geddes report which re-organised the transportation services on the Western Front. His WR number was issued in March 1918 , when all members of the Transportation Troops were re-numbered. Officers commanding units were required to submit nominal rolls of their men, and these new numbers were allocated sequentially by unit. It might be worth while looking for service records in Tom Watton's number range to see if you can identify a unit. However, this will take quite some time as you may have to plough through a lot of records and even then you may not come up with anything, as often they say " ROD" or something similar. However , it is worth a try.

TR

[dcrossman]

Thanks Terry

He attested in Dec 1915 at Longmoor and later documents I have show him as a carpenter. He was at least 18 (born about 1898/7) and his MIC shows 2nd (Cyc) Hants Regt (thsi was a territorial force unit). This unit stayed in the UK and didn't deploy.

I have a 1919 fiance picture of him which shows 3 good conduct stripes on left arm and a 1916 or so image in RE cap badge so I'm pretty sure he was active.

I did try the medal roll number search (tried about 3-4 either side of him) on ancestry but no luck (I assume that if 70% of records were burnt, then likely all of his units were too)

Danny

[dcrossman]

Here's his discharge form anyway... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1f/bc/0c/1fbc0ca15a63d5ff2ebb49dad4f7678b.jpg

[Terry_Reeves]

Danny, all I am getting is machine code.

TR

[dcrossman]

Here they are: WR276797 [309069] Spr Tom Watton - Railway Troops Royal Engineers:

Sorry for the bad image posting etiquette earlier!

Danny

[Terry_Reeves]

Danny, all I get is machine code I'm afraid.

His approximate date of birth helps, but it depends on when it was, given the age restriction for service overseas. His trade for carpenter is one that was that was recognised by the RE. I'm a bit puzzled by the good conduct stripes which indicate 12 years.

My comments in my original post still applies as to numbers - you will need to search many more than you have done.

Tr

[dcrossman]

Thanks Terry - sorry for the image issues (i've edited the post above with the embedded images)

His DoB was 5 Sep 1896 but his discharge form shows 1897. I thought that the conduct stripes were 1 per year served overseas? The British Army did away with them but the US military still uses them. This post gives more background on them http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/servicechevrons.html

I'll start digging on the service records - is ancestry or findmypast the better source?

Danny

[ianfinlay]

Hi, I've just been through this entire thread, but my ancestors WR27796 , 5 digits

My Great Grand Father William George PRIDMORE was a Royal Engineer and I wanted some guidance on narrowing down his Company within the Royal Engineers

Known Details:

Name: William George PRIDMORE

D.O.B. : 12APR1880 Islington London

Age @ 1915: 35 (note: unclear if enlisted or conscripted)
Medal Index Card: = Royal Engineer, WR27746 Army No: 96501,
Medal Index Record: Royal Engineers RandQ (Roads and Quarries)
Additional Photo's: One with RE on shoulder

Before & After WWI: London County Council Trams Car Conductor

L.C.C. Honor Role: RE Sapper 1915-1919 France

Additional : I have a Photo of him in a hospital (possibly an Egyptian Hospital, given mosquito nets above beds, not sure if taken after WW1 as dark collars on servicemen in background wasn't a WW1 uniform), with Corporal chevrons on the clipboard behind his bed, but L.L.C. honor role shows his rank as Sapper!

Particular assessment by 'Old Sweats' would be appreciated

note: I searched about 15 WR numbers either side of WR27796 obtained from ancestry.com and searched for them on on Forces War Records and none were in their records at all ! (I no longer have access to the National Archives or PRO at Kew as now living in Australia, any assistance appreciated)

Any Help Appreciated - Thanks in Adv.

[*********************** Correction made Name change from George William PRIDMORE to William George PRIDMORE **********************************************]

[dave ricketts]

Ian,

I wonder whether his original RE number was 196501, as this WR five figure digit is from the two quarrying companies (& HQ Group of Quarries which administered them), namely 198 & 199 Companies, and the guys who joined up in 1916 had some of the block of numbers 196xxx. In 1917 the Quarry Maintenance Section was formed too. I'm not at home at present but I've done some work to try and understand which WR number was attached to which unit, so I'll try and work out which unit George was attached to when the WR numbers were allocated in Spring 1918. Its a surprise to see his occupation, as generally the quarrying companies were trained quarrymen. (Maybe he was to assist in running the Decauville Light Railway in the quarries at Marquise, where 198 & 199 spent the war?)

These men were assembled at the RE Tunneling Depot at Clipstone and went to France from there in August 1916.

No quarrying companies served anywhere but France & Belgium, so the hospital photograph is a bit of a mystery.

Cheers,

Dave

[Terry_Reeves]

96501 is his original number and was issued in 1915. It suggests a New Army Field or perhaps Army Troops Company which would also explain the rank of Sapper, the LCC records not having caught up with his later peregrinations. If the hospital photograph is of him, then that indicates a RE unit in the Middle East which might narrow things down a bit. I just wonder if he was then sent home because of some illness he contracted there, perhaps being medically downgraded and sent home. It is interesting that the medal roll shows a lot of men around his WR number are also men who had served with other units prior to being post to Transportation units.

The WR pre-fix was allocated on or after March 1918, with units required to draw up nominal rolls of their men, the numbers being allocated consecutively on that basis. This means that those around him should have been from the same unit so it will be worthwhile persevering with the numbers to see if you can come up with some records that match. Do not bother with Forces War Records, they do not hold any records, they just replicate indexes that are available gratis elsewhere on the internet such as CWGC or TNAs Discovery.

TR

[ianfinlay]

Old Sweats:

Thanks for your assistance the only other additional information (through family tales)

His wife abandoned 3 children in June - July 1915 (My Nan was only 3 months old at the time)

boy b.1908 (7),

girl b.1912 (5),

girl b.Mar 1915 (3m)

I think she may have left as a 4th child died just before she was pregnant with the last child. Still can't Trace the mother to this day. Other than she showed up in divorce papers in 1921 (living with Jack Inge) Odd thing is , I think she might have been hiding something when she married him, as the she Gave her maiden name as LEE at the wedding, yet WALLACE at birth of 1st child.

I'm told they were put into state care, and he was given leave to sort out his children, and ended up putting them with his sister. I think this is how this picture came about.

(I'm still awaiting Barnados request form to be responded to)

Not sure if there would be special papers in military archives relating to this special leave - but not sure where to start looking either, even if I could rock up at the PRO Kew tomorrow.

Only known ailments, is he had tongue cancer later in life, likely not during WW1 as he continued as a tram conductor for many years, and would have needed to speak with customers on a regular basis

dave ricketts I have attached his MIC's, yes it does appear goes FROM 96501 TO WR27746,

MIC:

MIC:

[ianfinlay]

Terry Reeves,

Many Thanks for your incite, I will start investigating the other men with similar WR numbers, and maybe find something

Q.Is there a particular series of documents available online that detail the creation of RE WR units in 1918?

Q. Is there a short list of RE's that had middle east assignment? whats the best way to search for this?

Ian

[ianfinlay]

Just found more info on the family photo minus the mother

On 13JAN1916 all 3 kids went into the St Johns Road Workhouse, and the following day where discharged and then admitted into the Hornsey Rise Receiving Home, on the 22JAN1916 the boy age 7 was discharged and admitted to the St Mary Guardian School, Islington. It appears he stayed at the institution until entering the Navy (HMS Dolphin - Submarines). But he must have been given leave for this photo with his father in uniform. Whereabouts of mother unknown. The two girls 3 and 11months where discharged to the father on the 23FEB1916, which is probably the date this photo was taken (or there about's), the girls then went to his sister and remained there until the father remarried 9 years later.

[dave ricketts]

Ian,

I believe that he would have served with 198 at the time of the re-numbering. As Terry notes, the nominal roll is (approximately) alphabetical. For 198 I've got:

Adams WR27593, Barrett WR27623 & Timson WR27802.

I also note that for 199 there are a number of transfers in of men with assorted trades in Spring 1917, so it is possible that there was some broadening of skill-sets in the two quarrying companies at that time.

Cheers,

Dave

[ianfinlay]

Thanks Dave,

Would there be any way to better way to identify where he might have been under his original number: 96501? before transfer to WR

I'll start digging on unit diaries for the 198th.

Many Thanks

Out of curiosity,

and a want to understand "the how" you arrived at this information, having spent 18 years doing general family history research,

I'd love to know the process you've gone through to be subject matter experts?

Is it painstaking, recording of any WR number you come across in any source and try and work out a pattern, or better access than most to WR records?

look forward to your reply

Ian

[dave ricketts]

Ian,

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any numbering blocks for original RE numbers that allow any "guesstimation" of units, although they were probably allocated in blocks to the various RE Depots when men arrived there after enlistment (like the quarrymen who arrived at Clipstone in August 1916 who seem to have had numbers in the range 196xxx).

There isn't a Diary at Kew for any of the Quarrying Companies, except 348, although I understand that the RE Museum has some information. (On my to-do list....)

The original two quarrying units, and the majority of the later units formed in 1917, served in the quarries around Marquise close to Calais. They worked around the clock to provide road-metal for the Army to build & repair roads. (The Royal Engineers had Road Construction Companies to do a lot of this, although many infantrymen, based on memoirs, remembered road-making in their "rest" periods out of the line.)

As for my interest, although Narborough & Littlethorpe had men in these companies, they had no casualties to commemorate. There was a lot of quarrying in the area, and other nearby villages had casualties to commemorate - mainly accidents & illness. I couldn't find out a lot about these units so I've been ferreting away, on & off, for the last decade. My retirement plan is a Roads & Quarries troops database, but that won't be along for a while....

Regards,

Dave

[Terry_Reeves]

Ian

It is possible to identify some RE units from number blocks, particularly those from Kitchener units, but your subject's number (965**)does not fall into that category. The number was issued around May 1915 but the men went to different theatres of war, mainly to France but some also to Egypt.

TR

[GWF1967]

I have three dog tags for John Garbutt, none of which are marked R.E. One WR/22170, shows he was a roads and quarries man. The other pair are numbered 225999 MFC, any ideas on what this stands for please.

[GWF1967]

Manufacturing co?

[dave ricketts]

I'm no expert on tags, but some dog-tags had the soldier's religion on them (generally C.E. as the majority Church of England) so M.F.C. maybe Methodist Free Church???? His service record exists and on his AFB103 his religion is shown as "M.F.C."

He was a direct enlistment in the Road Construction Companies, as noted by the R.C.C. on the original tags.

Cheers,

Dave