9th Battalion Black Watch, Royal Highlanders

[kathryn64]

Hello - first time member here, so please excuse any mistakes and my long-winded approach!

I'm researching a soldier named Robert McKenzie, but seem to have got as far as I can and wondered if anyone here can help? He was my friend's great uncle and she would love to find out more about him and what happened to him in the Great War.

I have his 1914-15 star which reads on the reverse as -

Pte. R. McKenzie

R. HIGHRS

3-2944

From this I found his medal roll card at the National Archives and discovered he was killed in action - I hope you can see the attached medal card file - the date looks like 25-2-15 although it may be 25-9-15 as all other information I have found points to this date. (Tried uploading file but it won't let me - probably the 10 post rule)

In fact his listing on the CWWG said he died on 25th September 1915 so I tend to think it was a 9 for September. Would this be correct? His files also have his number as S/2944 or just 2944.

There is one more confusing point in this investigation - it says Private on his Star but both the CWWG and the Scottish Nat. War Memorial have him listed as Lance Corporal Robert McKenzie, 9th Bn, Black Watch (Royal Highlanders). Date of death 25/9/1915.

I've searched the London Gazette but can't find any mention of him becoming a Lance Corporal, and why would his medal still say Private? Any ideas?

He was born in Buckhaven, Fife around 1885 - his parents were Robert & Agnes McKenzie, if this info helps any.

I would love to see the photo of the Battalion that the forum member Skeenie has - I tried emailing you but due to my new membership it wouldn't let me do that. Do you think Robert McKenzie could be on the picture your sister has?

I am also trying to access his War Will but I'm obviously emailing the wrong department of the Nat. Library of Scotland as no-one has got back to me on the topic! Does someone know how I can access this document which is too fragile to touch in the research room.

That's it for now - I hope someone has the time to assist me in my search. Thank you all for your time, Kathryn

[dundeesown]

Hi Kathryn

Welcome to the Forum,Your man L/Cpl S/2944 R. McKenzie was K.I.A. on the 25/09/1915 The Battle of Loos,

Gary

[Guest]

The MIC does say Feb, think it's the right man?

Cheers Mike

[Stebie9173]

Welcome to the Forum, and to the smaller "family" of Black Watch related "Pals" on the Forum.

The Army had (has) two separate sets of "ranks" - substantive ranks (i.e. permanent ranks) - Private, Corporal, Sergeant, Warrant Officer Class 2, Warrant Officer Class 1, and then officer ranks.

Then there were "appointments" - Lance-Corporal, Lance-Sergeant, plus a few more esoteric ones. This type could be given for a short term, and would often depend on the man staying with his unit. For example, if he was a Lance-Corporal in one unit, and transferred to another, he might revert back to being a "plain" Private.

You often see Private and Lance-Corporal shown in different sets of official records, and though there seemed to have been a differing set of standards that were upkept for medal issuing, you often see medals saying Private when a man was a Lance-Corporal.

Only officers promotions are shown in the London Gazette - "other ranks" promotions would often be only shown on a man's records. As you may know, over 2/3rd of the records were burnt in a fire in the Blitz.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The man above is also far too early for seeing his first action with the 9th battalion who first went overseas in July 1915, though he may have transferred later from one of the Regular battalions. Also the "3/" and "S/" prefixes meant entirely different things.

Edit: It looks like CWGC may have a (scanning) mistake - S/2944 (there should only be one) seems like it was allocated to Walter Sneddon Royal Highlanders S/2944, Royal Highlanders 29876. So one mistake on CWGC, and one on the Medal Card!

Steve.

[dundeesown]

Looks as if Mike has your man,and it looks as if it`s an error on the mic for the date,for The History of The Black Watch has him K.I.A 25/09/1915,not sure about the rank,Steve will know more about that than me.

Gary

[kathryn64]

The man above is also far too early for seeing his first action with the 9th battalion who first went overseas in July 1915, though he may have transferred later from one of the Regular battalions. Also the "3/" and "S/" prefixes meant entirely different things.

Edit: It looks like CWGC may have a (scanning) mistake - S/2944 (there should only be one) seems like it was allocated to Walter Sneddon Royal Highlanders S/2944, Royal Highlanders 29876. So one mistake on CWGC, and one on the Medal Card!

Steve.

Thanks for all the wonderful information - but now I'm totally confused!! Do I have the correct Robert McKenzie?? The only thing I'm sure of now is the medal his family has. Not sure exactly what to do next!!

[dundeesown]

Hi Looking at that MIC again it has T.O.W - France & Date of entry 24/11/14,but the Ninth landed in France on the 9th July 1915 ?

How can that be ? Pay attention Gary (post 5 )

Gary.

[Guest]

Hi Kathryn. The CWGC have him as S/2944, it should be 3/2944. His MIC has date of death as 25/2/1915, and it should be 25/9/1915.

I think that's the story.

Cheers Mike

[kathryn64]

Hi Looking at that MIC again it has T.O.W - France & Date of entry 24/11/14,but the Ninth landed in France on the 9th July 1915 ?

How can that be ?

Gary.

Hello - do you think he wasn't even part of the 9th Battalion then? Another member has suggested his actual number was 3-2944 - I think I'll just have to start again using this number to base my search on.

[dundeesown]

No I think it will be the same man,I thought the S in front of a Scottish Number stood for Service Battalion may be wrong.I think you have threw this in to test us. The H.O.T.B.W has his number with an S.? I`m going to bed.

Gary

[Guest]

I think we're all confused

Steve knows a great deal more than I, maybe he will be able to untangle it all.

Cheers Mike

[kathryn64]

I think we're all confused

Steve knows a great deal more than I, maybe he will be able to untangle it all.

Cheers Mike

Hello all - yes, it's all very confusing - you think you're on the right lines, then out jumps a surprise!

I'm logging off for the night as it is now very late and I will no doubt end up falling asleep at work if I stay up any longer

I'll check back tomorrow, goodnight everyone, Kathryn

[Stebie9173]

Unfortunately, I can't see a service record for Robert McKenzie online, but the Service Record of a man with a nearby number has survived - No. 3/2946 John Thomas Mackie, which tell us that he (Mackie) joined the Army at Couper Angus on 14th August 1914, joining the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion on 15th August 1914. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that 3/2944 Robert McKenzie was with him....

Private Mackie was later posted to 2nd Battalion going to France on 12-12-1914, so their paths had separated by then. However, it is 100% certain that Robert McKenzie would have served with either 1st or 2nd Battalion in France prior to his transfer to the 9th Battalion. Why he was transferred cannot be said at this time, but many men came home with frostbite (as well as wounds and disease) over the harsh winter of 1914, and were sent back out again with new battalions.

The medal rolls at the National Archives should show which battalion he served with in 1914.

He actually missed out on the 1914 Star entitlement by two days....

Steve.

[kathryn64]

Unfortunately, I can't see a service record for Robert McKenzie online, but the Service Record of a man with a nearby number has survived - No. 3/2946 John Thomas Mackie, which tell us that he (Mackie) joined the Army at Couper Angus on 14th August 1914, joining the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion on 15th August 1914. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that 3/2944 Robert McKenzie was with him....

Private Mackie was later posted to 2nd Battalion going to France on 12-12-1914, so their paths had separated by then. However, it is 100% certain that Robert McKenzie would have served with either 1st or 2nd Battalion in France prior to his transfer to the 9th Battalion. Why he was transferred cannot be said at this time, but many men came home with frostbite (as well as wounds and disease) over the harsh winter of 1914, and were sent back out again with new battalions.

The medal rolls at the National Archives should show which battalion he served with in 1914.

He actually missed out on the 1914 Star entitlement by two days....

Steve.

Hi Steve - so do you think I have the right man...?

Can I presume that any of the information I've found is worth giving to my friend as history of her relative? I told her that he's on the Loos Memorial Panels because his body was never found/identified and that he died on 25th September during that battle.

Can I tell her that perhaps he was listed as Lance Corporal as it had been a temporary promotion and the engraving of the 1914/15 Star had just never caught up with this fact?

I did manage to find the "Return of Warrant Officers...Men...of the 9th Battalion Royal Highlanders..Killed in action/died whilst on Service" document on Scotland's People - it has Lance Corporal Robert McKenzie on it - and the number looks like 3/2944, but the numbers are right on the fold of the paper and it could even be an S.

Could it be that the CWWG, the SNWM and even the Nat. Archives of Scotland all have him wrongly listed as S/2944, but it is in fact the same man......?

What's your opinion of your earlier post about him being too early to see action with the 9th - would I be better trying to research the 1st/2nd Battalion perhaps?

Thanks for your time, Kathryn

[eveanne]

Kathryn

Annoying when there is confusion over the army number. Checked out SDGW for you and it also has an'S':

[kathryn64]

Kathryn

Annoying when there is confusion over the army number. Checked out SDGW for you and it also has an'S':

Hi Eveanne - yes it's all a bit confusing - it makes me wonder what other details aren't quite right for this soldier. Unfortunately the family doesn't know anything about their relative, and my friend only has the 1914/15 Star - I wonder if his Death Penny, Victory Medal and War Medal have anything different enscribed on them.....That might have cleared up the whole Private/Lance Corporal and the number issue.....

I think my pal will have to get in touch with distant relatives and see what else they can track down, military wise...

Thanks for your time on the topic, Kathryn

[Stebie9173]

Kathyrn,

The Private & Lance-Corporal thing is really quite common. He was almost certainly a Lance-Corporal rather than a Private.

The numbering thing (as always) is a bit more complex, as numbers were not always unique. In fact there could be as many as 10 or more of the same number, but there shouldn't be a duplicate of a number of the same TYPE.

The Black Watch would have had the following types of numbers:

"Regular numbers" - These started at "1" in 1881 and were issued to full-time Regular soldiers - pre-war this meant the 1st and 2nd Battalions of most regiments. Sometimes you see these with a 1/ or 2/ prefix, but usually without. 2944 in the Black Watch would have probably been issued in the mid-1880s. Most Regiments reached about 10,000 in this numebring system by 1914 - though the number of battalions varied the figure.

"Special Reserve numbers" - These were issued to men joining on Special Reservist (part-time) enlistments, and would have been prefixed "3/" This seems to be the series that Robert McKenzies number was part of, issued at the outbreak of war. The 3/ prefix was nearly always shown on official records.

"Wartime enlistment numbers" - This came in at the beginning of the war. I don't know the exact date (possibly September 1914?), but there would probably have been a few wartime enlistees that were numbered from the Regular or Special Reserve before this system kicked-in. Theese numbers were prefixed "S/" There should be one man with the S/2944 number, which the Medal Card Index shows as Walter Sneddon.

There is an extra series of Territorial numbers that could possibly enter the equation, but I believe that they shouldn't. My opinion is that Robert McKenzie would have been numbered as 3/2944 and not S/2944. I am about 95%+ certain on that...

Steve.

[kathryn64]

Kathyrn,

The Private & Lance-Corporal thing is really quite common. He was almost certainly a Lance-Corporal rather than a Private.

The numbering thing (as always) is a bit more complex, as numbers were not always unique. In fact there could be as many as 10 or more of the same number, but there shouldn't be a duplicate of a number of the same TYPE.

The Black Watch would have had the following types of numbers:

"Regular numbers" - These started at "1" in 1881 and were issued to full-time Regular soldiers - pre-war this meant the 1st and 2nd Battalions of most regiments. Sometimes you see these with a 1/ or 2/ prefix, but usually without. 2944 in the Black Watch would have probably been issued in the mid-1880s. Most Regiments reached about 10,000 in this numebring system by 1914 - though the number of battalions varied the figure.

"Special Reserve numbers" - These were issued to men joining on Special Reservist (part-time) enlistments, and would have been prefixed "3/" This seems to be the series that Robert McKenzies number was part of, issued at the outbreak of war. The 3/ prefix was nearly always shown on official records.

"Wartime enlistment numbers" - This came in at the beginning of the war. I don't know the exact date (possibly September 1914?), but there would probably have been a few wartime enlistees that were numbered from the Regular or Special Reserve before this system kicked-in. Theese numbers were prefixed "S/" There should be one man with the S/2944 number, which the Medal Card Index shows as Walter Sneddon.

There is an extra series of Territorial numbers that could possibly enter the equation, but I believe that they shouldn't. My opinion is that Robert McKenzie would have been numbered as 3/2944 and not S/2944. I am about 95%+ certain on that...

Steve.

Hi Steve - thanks for the information - you've been a big help, and thank you to everyone else for all your wonderful contributions. I'm glad I joined this forum - it's such a wealth of information and great people too.

Kathryn