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Remembered Today:

Ivy Green - Aux Patrol Boat - Operations - RNVR


Martian Ind

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Hi

I am trying to find out a bit more detail regarding the operations of the Drifter " Ivy Green ". Frederick Pegden served on this vessel, which was requistioned by the Navy to act as an aux patrol boat or maybe a minesweeper, I think Frederick operated on her whilst a fishing vessel, then war broke out and he and the ship were requistioned. I am advised by members of the family it operated out of Folkestone, and was involved with some kind of naval conflict which involved an act of heroism by Frederick, he was consequently awarded the DSM, Schools in Folkestone were given a day off to mark the award ceremony. The naval conflict involved I think the sinking of a ship, as I am informed that Frederick gave up his seat in a lifeboat to a married man with children. I have only just started my research, and have learnt the the Ivy Green was a Drifter during its civilian life, I would be keen to know what conversions were done to it (if any), enabling her to be titled Aux patrol boat. I will try the Folkestone news archives around the period, as it must have been a newsworthy act if Schools were closed for the day. If anybody can point me in the right direction with regard to research material/areas, etc, etc, that would be great. I am sure the RN must have details of the act of heroism, but not so sure these days, but knowing where to start that's the problem. Thanks in advance for any help. Martin

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Hello Martian, welcome to the forum

The Distinguished Service Medal 1914-1920 (W.H. Fevyer)

Deckhand Frederick Golden Pegden D.S.M. RNR, ON. 14543 DA. 'The following awards have been approved for services in the Auxiliary Patrol and minesweeping between the 1st January and 30th June 1918'. LG5.10.18 p11781.

HMD Ivy Green was a Buckie drifter, Port Reg. BCK23. Built 1908 76TG requisitioned by the admiralty 3.15-1919 No. 2485.

Armament 1-6pdr, Net, M/S. His service papaers should be at the Fleet Air Arm Musuem info@fleetairarm.co.uk.

Regards John

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Hi John,

That was quick excellent thanks, e-mail gone off to fleet air arm. Reading their diatribe it seems touch and go whether they have anything regarding the operational duties of the Ivy Green, something must have happened to her, maybe his service records will throw some light on the subject. It may be she simply ran aground... I have since found out she was acting as a flanker at one point protecting the rear of a floundering vessel (unknown) which had already collected one torpedo from a u-boat, the vessel was under tow by two other aux when the rope parted company, and unfortunately the vessel sank, Ivy Green did not engage anybody, at least its not written. Would the fleet air arm have records of engagements? or would it be the RN? Thanks again

Martin

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The various divisions of the Auxiliary Patrol kept diaries. Providing the you can establish that Folkestone was the sector in question, the diary will be available to view at the National Archive, Kew. Most AP sector diaries have regular returns and priceless snippets of information.

The 1917/18 Folkestone Diaries commence in ADM 53/41941 and run to ADM 53/41964

You may like to examine the file covering the infamous attack made by German units on AP vessels policing the Folkestone Griz/Nez mine barrage in ADM 156/137 - just a thought

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The various divisions of the Auxiliary Patrol kept diaries. Providing the you can establish that Folkestone was the sector in question, the diary will be available to view at the National Archive, Kew. Most AP sector diaries have regular returns and priceless snippets of information.

The 1917/18 Folkestone Diaries commence in ADM 53/41941 and run to ADM 53/41964

You may like to examine the file covering the infamous attack made by German units on AP vessels policing the Folkestone Griz/Nez mine barrage in ADM 156/137 - just a thought

Thanks will make enquiries, more questions: Is there one particular area or collective within the FAM or RN that lists or records individuals acts of bravery/heroism which leads to awards such as the DCM, DSM, etc, etc. I am advised that there were only approx 7000+ DSM's awarded during the 14-18 conflict. I am thinking there exist potentially several volumes possibly in some sort of order listing the awards/the receipient and maybe albeit a brief mention of why it was awarded. If the conflict is mentioned it will help when scanning the aforementioned diaries? maybe?

Thanks again

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Thanks will make enquiries, more questions: Is there one particular area or collective within the FAM or RN that lists or records individuals acts of bravery/heroism which leads to awards such as the DCM, DSM, etc, etc. I am advised that there were only approx 7000+ DSM's awarded during the 14-18 conflict. I am thinking there exist potentially several volumes possibly in some sort of order listing the awards/the receipient and maybe albeit a brief mention of why it was awarded. If the conflict is mentioned it will help when scanning the aforementioned diaries? maybe?

Thanks again

The Distinquished Service Medal rolls for 1914-37 are to be found in ADM 171/61. These list name and official number of recipient, ship's pay book number, name of ship, and where delivered or sent. You will be unlikely to find any citations included.

Regards John

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Welcome to the forum

Microfiche copies of the Royal Naval Reserve service cards are held at Kew in BT377/7.

There were about 5,500 DSMs issued for WWI. The details on the DSM roll in ADM 171/61 for minesweeping medals sometimes gives the area they relate to. This is the issue roll so the details of who they were sent to can indicate who would be making the award on behalf of the King. I do not recall seeing the ship's pay book number; that was usually on service records. The original recommendation files exist for many Naval awards and can be found using the ADM 12 indexes. Here's a thread about them:

 

 

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Thanks: More questions I understand the prefix/suffix letters to the service number have a meaning, i.e. what the vessel was requisitioned for, but DA is not listed on the Kew site. Does anybody know what DA or Ivy Green was tasked with?, on the edge of the DSM it states " aux patrol ", which I think all the reqd vessels were called?. Re the further letters DK HD I assume to mean DecK HanD though not 100% certain. I spoke to some guy at the Folkestone Heritage, he is looking at the Herald for that period he is going to look and see if F Pegden is mentioned anywhere, if Schools were shut for the day to honour his act of heroism I assume it must have been something quite worthy, hence my interest. Am I to assume, when I do eventually dig up his service records, and the ships for that matter it should list this act and the subsequent instruction to award the DSM, what sort of timescale would exist between the naval records of the award and Frederick actually being awarded it by some dignatory (in the Kings absence) I want an approx search date for the newspaper guy, getting a little bit ahead of myself here I know, but like to be prepared.

Thoughts on a postcard please... Thanks everyone thus far, I am not sure whether I will have the time to visit Kew, but after reading the various threads, this appears to be the only sure fire way. I have requested various estimates from the national archives, what this will cost no idea, and it appears that you need to review several doc's before you eventually reach your goal, and from what I gather the information will not list any citations anyway, I am hoping the folkestone diaries will reveal something about the Ivy Green, but just in case the Folkestone bit is a red herring (cos I heard she was operating in Scotland at one point) where can I find out about for certain her location during the great war period? Once again would the medal be awarded in the receipients place of birth/hometown or would it be near the port (for the time being I assume them to be one and the same) from which the vessel operated. I am 99% certain it is Folkestone.

Martin

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Details from PE Abbott & JMA Tamplin British Gallantry Awards 1971 edition. WW1 DSMs Their main source gives 5,519 awards (another source gives 5,519 and their count was 4,052) including first (67) and second (2) bars. The DSM issue roll is in ADM 171/61 and disagrees with their count.

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You have been informed correctly the prefix/suffix letters to the service numbers issued by the Admiralty all had a meaning. DA = a Deck Hand in the RNR Trawler Section.

The Auxiliary Patrol was the main function of the RNR, there are some books available such as E. Keble Chatterton, The Auxiliary Patrol (Sidgwick and Jackson, Ltd., London, 1923). There are also accounts in the Official History (both Naval and Mercantile). His service record will probably just give the date the DSM was Gazetted.

To find a reference from ADM 12 involves at least: checking 2 alphabetical indexes for the year, cross checking the reference found and then ordering the file (if it hasn’t been weeded). If the file exists it will generally include the recommendation, these can be detailed or something along the lines of “I would like to bring to Their Lordships attention the conduct of Deck Hand Pegden who conducted himself in the finest traditions of the service.” In some files there are copies of the notification letters for the award that he was sent and some report when and where the awards were made.

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From "Danger Zone" by E. Keble Chatterton,

"We have just mentioned the three masted Norwegian barque Bellgrade, which U35 on June 12 [1915] had shelled so heartlessly. That same morning she was sighted by the Milford patrol vessels, whose crew boarded her and found her to be abandoned, with sails furled aloft, the hull low in the water, and stern submerged to a depth of four feet. So they tried to salve her, and took her in tow with a 100-fathom rope of three inch wire. Three net drifters, Cromorna, Ivy Green, and Marys [all from Scotland's fisheries], began the task, the first two tugging ahead and the last keeping a look-out astern for the enemy.

Making for the Welsh coast some seventy miles away against an easterly wind and agitated sea was a slow, wearisome job, yet they kept going at four knots, until 5 a.m. on June 14 wind and waves defeated them and the three-inch wire parted. Sticking to the undertaking, they were endeavouring again to take her in tow when the Bellgrade gave a horrible list in the sea trough and completely capsized, turning keel up. Luckily those fisher hands who had been put aboard the barque managed to scramble off like squirrels, and were all rescued, though one man was injured by an iron cathead which struck him as the vessel turned over.

No longer was it possible to do anything with her, and the drifters were running short of coal; so the latter steamed off to Milford Haven, leaving an armed trawler to warn passing ships of this obstruction. Lying in the middle of the Irish Channel, she might have caused disaster to some Liverpool liner in the darkness, so for the next week there had ever to be one of the Milford patrols standing by, until the day came when she was finally towed into St. Bride's Bay, where this neutral victim of the enemy was anchored. Apart from the value of the hull, spars, sails, and fittings, the Bellgrade had a cargo worth £50,000, so the fishermen-warriors had been able to render good service".

David.

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You have been informed correctly the prefix/suffix letters to the service numbers issued by the Admiralty all had a meaning. DA = a Deck Hand in the RNR Trawler Section.

The Auxiliary Patrol was the main function of the RNR, there are some books available such as E. Keble Chatterton, The Auxiliary Patrol (Sidgwick and Jackson, Ltd., London, 1923). There are also accounts in the Official History (both Naval and Mercantile). His service record will probably just give the date the DSM was Gazetted.

To find a reference from ADM 12 involves at least: checking 2 alphabetical indexes for the year, cross checking the reference found and then ordering the file (if it hasn't been weeded). If the file exists it will generally include the recommendation, these can be detailed or something along the lines of "I would like to bring to Their Lordships attention the conduct of Deck Hand Pegden who conducted himself in the finest traditions of the service." In some files there are copies of the notification letters for the award that he was sent and sohen and where the awards were made.

Thanks for that, looking forward to delving further, I am still trying to ascertain where the Ivy Green operated from, it appears to be Milford Haven going from the posts here, but relatives of Frederick seem to think he was based in Folkestone, I thought most drifters chased Herring and came from my part of the world i.e. Lowestoft/Gt Yarmouth, so confused I am, + John's post below states officially it was a " Buckie Drifter " which means a Scottish Herring chaser... so now know where it started life, but where did it operate from in the theatre of War..? Thks again

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The Navy lists give two commanding officers for Ivy Green between 1915 & 1918.

Skipper R.N.R., Alexander Imlach, from 5th March 1915.

Skipper R.N.R., Walter M. Palmer, from July 1918.

David.

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The Navy lists give two commanding officers for Ivy Green between 1915 & 1918.

Skipper R.N.R., Alexander Imlach, from 5th March 1915.

Skipper R.N.R., Walter M. Palmer, from July 1918.

David.

Excellent will dig around first thing in the morning, I think I might get lucky just been in touch with the Buckie builders, they may have a photo of the Ivy Green in her Naval Regalia - fingers crossed. Thks again

Martin

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From "Danger Zone" by E. Keble Chatterton,

"We have just mentioned the three masted Norwegian barque Bellgrade, which U35 on June 12 [1915] had shelled so heartlessly. That same morning she was sighted by the Milford patrol vessels, whose crew boarded her and found her to be abandoned, with sails furled aloft, the hull low in the water, and stern submerged to a depth of four feet. So they tried to salve her, and took her in tow with a 100-fathom rope of three inch wire. Three net drifters, Cromorna, Ivy Green, and Marys [all from Scotland's fisheries], began the task, the first two tugging ahead and the last keeping a look-out astern for the enemy.

Making for the Welsh coast some seventy miles away against an easterly wind and agitated sea was a slow, wearisome job, yet they kept going at four knots, until 5 a.m. on June 14 wind and waves defeated them and the three-inch wire parted. Sticking to the undertaking, they were endeavouring again to take her in tow when the Bellgrade gave a horrible list in the sea trough and completely capsized, turning keel up. Luckily those fisher hands who had been put aboard the barque managed to scramble off like squirrels, and were all rescued, though one man was injured by an iron cathead which struck him as the vessel turned over.

No longer was it possible to do anything with her, and the drifters were running short of coal; so the latter steamed off to Milford Haven, leaving an armed trawler to warn passing ships of this obstruction. Lying in the middle of the Irish Channel, she might have caused disaster to some Liverpool liner in the darkness, so for the next week there had ever to be one of the Milford patrols standing by, until the day came when she was finally towed into St. Bride's Bay, where this neutral victim of the enemy was anchored. Apart from the value of the hull, spars, sails, and fittings, the Bellgrade had a cargo worth £50,000, so the fishermen-warriors had been able to render good service".

David.

I've been at this all day, its driving me bonkers trying to find out what it was that got Frederick the DSM, I acquired a set of three including the DSM recently from a local gent whose great Uncle they originally belonged, they have been cased since awarded, but unfortunately the family knows very little about the award, apart from what I have already posted. I promised them I will find out as much as I can, and pass it on. I am not a collector, but I am a p/t dealer in antiquities and collectables, but I am going to hang onto these for a while (I am starting to become a collector by default). All I can say is TGF the Internet, in earlier times it must have taken a month of Sundays to acquire the smalles snippet of info, now its down to keywords and phrasology (is that a word..?) Thanks for info thus far Martin

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Suggest you consult the Auxiliary Patrol Red Book held at the Caird Library, Greenwich Maritime Museum to establish the precise movements of this vessel, prior to looking up AP sector diaries

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Suggest you consult the Auxiliary Patrol Red Book held at the Caird Library, Greenwich Maritime Museum to establish the precise movements of this vessel, prior to looking up AP sector diaries

OK thanks for that will do, after having located her Wartime port as it were, and then consulting the AP sector diaries for vessels operating out of that port. What kind of information would the AP diaries provide?, based on my end game which is to learn what the DSM was actually awarded for. I would like to think that the diaries would provide details of any enemy engagement.? I have since learnt that the Ivy Green was sold to A Imlach in 1919 (he was the Skipper RNR 1915-18) so it got through the War in a saleable form, so Frederick who apparently gave up his seat on a lifeboat to another married crew member with children, was perhaps not abandoning the Ivy Green... the plot thickens..

Thanks again, this forum is a mine of information

ps Ivy Green was a Net Vessel and Minesweeper

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The Weekly Reports contain summaries of the Auxiliary Patrol duties such as escort/convoy work and areas swept of mines or sea areas patrolled. Matters of interest are also recorded, such as salvage attempts, rescues and so on. The remainder of the Weekly Reports contain much more mundane information concerning damage to vessels, repairs, refits, moves to other patrol areas etc. It is highly likely that there will be a report from the Senior Naval Officer detailing significant events, which is no doubt what you're looking for.

The records of the Auxiliary Patrol held at TNA are well represented and pretty much complete. Once you know which Auxiliary Patrol area the Ivy Green was allocated to you should be almost home and dry.

Dave W

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The Weekly Reports contain summaries of the Auxiliary Patrol duties such as escort/convoy work and areas swept of mines or sea areas patrolled. Matters of interest are also recorded, such as salvage attempts, rescues and so on. The remainder of the Weekly Reports contain much more mundane information concerning damage to vessels, repairs, refits, moves to other patrol areas etc. It is highly likely that there will be a report from the Senior Naval Officer detailing significant events, which is no doubt what you're looking for.

The records of the Auxiliary Patrol held at TNA are well represented and pretty much complete. Once you know which Auxiliary Patrol area the Ivy Green was allocated to you should be almost home and dry.

Dave W

Thats great precisely what I am looking for, should I also assume that Frederick's commanding officer, advised the admirality of his act of valour. I am hoping to be able to contact a surviving member of one of the Skipper's, as it is in my experience they had photographs of the vessel they commanded. Is it OK to research them? I have permission from Quintin Pegden to research his Great Uncle, he has an Auntie in Folkestone that may have some more info/pictures. I have a photo of the Ivy Green as a commerical drifter it would be great to get something in her naval attire. I think I will post the photo request separately. Thanks for your help much appreciated.

Martin

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F.G. Pegden was born in Folkstone (Elham) in 1889. 3rd Quarter Vol.2a page 1007.

Regards john

Good news, the pieces are coming together, I am pretty certain she operated out of Milford (could be wrong) the National maritime archive chap just called, it was a first for him, the Ivy Green is mentioned along with her skippers but her operational base is not listed which he thought was unusual. According to the Aunt the Schools in Folkestone had a day off to mark the award, perhaps in his absence if he was based in Milford. Need to find the date the award was made. Thanks again Martin

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During the Great War these Drifters/Trawlers which were requisitioned by the admiralty, were they commanded by an Officer of the Royal Navy? Just curious that's all, also might help re locating the Skippers surviving relatives. Thanks Martin

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As mentioned in post #2 his award was published in the suppliment of the London Gazette dated 5th October 1918, that is the official notification of award, so the actual presentation of the award would be after that date.

Gazette Issue 30936 published on the 4 October 1918. Page 11781

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/309...pplements/11781

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The Skippers of the trawlers/ drifters were warrant officers in the Royal Naval Reserve, their service cards will have their address at time of service.

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There are three files on Ivy Green at Kew. They are: ADM 53/45179, ADM 53/45180 and ADM 53/45181

The Milford AP diaries are in ADM 137/676- ADM 137/680

Larger AP trawlers tended to be captained by RNR rather than RN personnel. Sometimes a trained and experienced RN gunner was drafted to a trawler in sectors where there was high U-boat activity.

Smaller units merely retained their peacetime crews

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