Aerial Observation for Artillery

[Paul Treclyn]

I have recently spent some time walking in hills around the Elan Valley in Mid Wales. One hill is pock-marked by many shell holes and large pieces of shrapnel are still to be seen on the surface. A local farmer said that the hill was the target during artillery training during the First World War. I have looked into the history a bit, enough to discover that the Rhayader Artillery Camp was established in the area some years before the war and remained in use during the conflict. I'm not sure if this was the same site as the hill I refer to, but one piece of interesting info that I have picked up is that the first experiments with the use of aerial observation for artillery were, apparently, carried out at the Rhayader artillery range.

Does anyone know anything about the Rhayader artillery camp, or of any good sources about activities there, particularly in relation to the story about aerial observation? If its true, then there must be some interesting history about the RFC / RAF involvement in the experiments.

[jasmor58]

The 9.2 inch siege howitzer was tested there in July 1914.

Jasmor58

[Paul Treclyn]

The 9.2 inch siege howitzer was tested there in July 1914.

Jasmor58

I think that was the howitzer they called "Mother" (I have seen contemporary reports from The Times online ). I suspect that the aerial experiments were carried out earlier. I'll post a photo of one of the shell fragments (more than a fragment really) on the Home section of the forum in a bit.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Aerial observation started with balloons; the RFC was founded in 1912, earlier experiments were conducted by the Royal Engineers. I haven't had any luck matching likely looking files at Kew.

[centurion]

The first use of aerial observation for artillery spotting was at the siege of Maubeuge in 1794 by the French Corps d’Aerostatier under Captain Coutelle. Flags were used to signal fall of shot. Originally equiped with one balloon the Corps expanded by 1796 to four companies. Flying these early balloons was extemely dangerous as they had no means of venting gas so that if one broke away from its moorings it would simply rise until its envelope ruptured. There were of course no parachutes

[Paul Treclyn]

I should have specified that the Rhayader experiments were with aircraft of course, rather than balloons. The only reference I have personally seen comes from a local historian in the area who mentions the matter on a BBC website. I don't know if he's got the story from local tradition or published sources though.

[centurion]

Experiments with signalling from air to ground were carried outpre war - some of the early BEs being involved in some of this. I believe that this was primarily to establish artillery spotting capability. Certainly artillery shoots took place very early in the war. More when I get home.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Both the RNAS & RFC carried out artillery spotting using aeroplanes early in the war. Many aeroplanes were fitted with wireless, but I still haven't so far anything that show the role of Rhayader Artillery Camp in the experiments.

[centurion]

The prewar experiments with wireless appear to have been around Larkhill on Salisbury Plain.

Just after the war 30 German ex airforcemen headed by a Major Georg Paul Neuman wrote a history of the German air services in the Great War. It was translated into English in 1921. It states that an early LVG was used right from the beginning of the war for "artillery observation" but was not fitted with wireless. It was not until the introduction of C types in 1915 that a wireless was carried for artillery shoots.

[centurion]

Something I posted at the begining of the year in answer to a similar question

On 24th Sept 1914 Lt D S Lewis and Lt B T James of no 4 Sqn carried out an artillery direction flight, using wireless during the Battle of the Aisne (It lasted some 40 minutes). I know that the Italians carried out the first ever artillery direction flight in 1911 at the Battle of Sciara-Sciat (without wireless) during the Italo Turkish War

[Paul Treclyn]

This Rhayader story is starting to puzzle me. I'll have to investigate via the local sources to see if I can find out where it originates. Will keep you posted.

[centurion]

Thought has occured. One of the factors delaying the spread of the use of wireless based artillery shoots was a lack of trained wireless operators to work at the battery end (they took time to train - this seems to have been done by the RFC who then attached the men to the artillery). Obviosly they would have to become proficient in wireless, the limitations of aircraft andI the operation of a battery. I wonder if Rhayader was an early training centre for this.

[Paul Treclyn]

I really don't know anything more than was reported on the BBC website. Here's a link to the article written by a local historian.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites/rhaya...ges/brian.shtml

I am trying to make contact with him to see if I can get some more detail. He seems to know his stuff about the area from what I have seen of his work.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

This file from Kew is the only one I've found that seems to be connected to the artillery shoots; not sure if it mentions the aerial experiments.

Catalogue Reference Title/Scope and Content Covering Dates

T 1/11391 War Office. Payments in respect of compensation to commoners, owners of shooting rights, etc. on land hired at Rhayader Artillery Practice Camp. 1912

[centurion]

This file from Kew is the only one I've found that seems to be connected to the artillery shoots; not sure if it mentions the aerial experiments.

Catalogue Reference Title/Scope and Content Covering Dates

T 1/11391 War Office. Payments in respect of compensation to commoners, owners of shooting rights, etc. on land hired at Rhayader Artillery Practice Camp. 1912

One wouldn't think so merely compensating people who used to shoot game not howitzers

[per ardua per mare per terram]

In my experience it is unwise to prejudge an original source before viewing it. It is entirely possible that the owners of shooting rights may have submitted compensation claims for aircraft disturbing their game.

[centurion]

There are lots of claims to have been the site of the first artillery shoots - for example the Belgians claim this

"On 12 September 1912 Brasschaat witnesses a European premiere as pilot Lieutenant Nélis and Lieutenant Stellingwerf acting as gunner accomplish the first air-to-ground gunnery mission." but in fact as early as 1910 the French artillery officer Jean Babtiste Estienne (better known as the father of the French tank) was carrying out experimental shoots with aircraft being photographed in an aircraft at the time. As already posted the Italians used it in anger in 1911.

[centurion]

The Belgian aircraft in question

http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/News...rasschaat_n.jpg

[Old Man]

There are lots of claims to have been the site of the first artillery shoots - for example the Belgians claim this

"On 12 September 1912 Brasschaat witnesses a European premiere as pilot Lieutenant Nélis and Lieutenant Stellingwerf acting as gunner accomplish the first air-to-ground gunnery mission." but in fact as early as 1910 the French artillery officer Jean Babtiste Estienne (better known as the father of the French tank) was carrying out experimental shoots with aircraft being photographed in an aircraft at the time. As already posted the Italians used it in anger in 1911.

If recollection serves, Sir, the Belgian notice refers to an early use of a Lewis gun on an aeroplane, firing at a target on the ground, rather than an experiment in directing artillery.

[battiscombe]

I recently acquired some pictures of Rhayader camp being used by RGA for training in 1904 - with what looks like the 4.7 inch? guns...........showing an extensive tented encampment (c.100? bell tents) .. beside a track.... if you see this post and are still interested I could get the image scanned and posted as the panorama woudl doubtless be locatable for anyone knowing the area ..

david

I have recently spent some time walking in hills around the Elan Valley in Mid Wales. One hill is pock-marked by many shell holes and large pieces of shrapnel are still to be seen on the surface. A local farmer said that the hill was the target during artillery training during the First World War. I have looked into the history a bit, enough to discover that the Rhayader Artillery Camp was established in the area some years before the war and remained in use during the conflict. I'm not sure if this was the same site as the hill I refer to, but one piece of interesting info that I have picked up is that the first experiments with the use of aerial observation for artillery were, apparently, carried out at the Rhayader artillery range.

Does anyone know anything about the Rhayader artillery camp, or of any good sources about activities there, particularly in relation to the story about aerial observation? If its true, then there must be some interesting history about the RFC / RAF involvement in the experiments.

[Guest CharlieCollard]

Hi I Have several photos of camps up the Elan Valley during and before the first world war. I have lived in the area all my life and may be able to recognise the landscape shot you speak of