stripeyman Posted 23 June , 2009 Share Posted 23 June , 2009 This blinking crater ! It is my contention that the crater that people remember and can make out on Google Earth is NOT the Red Dragon Crater. There was no RD crater visable in 1981, the one some of us saw was in my opinion 'Warlingham' with Guards connections, Warlingham being one of their Depots. Using trenchmaps and airiel photos I measured the site in 1981 and came to this conclusion. Somewhere in a distant WFA Bulletin or 'Gunfire' I wrote a piece about it. Bob Grundy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 24 June , 2009 Share Posted 24 June , 2009 There is a couple of splodges visible on Google Earth but I am not sure either exactly corresponds to the site. Incidentally Grumpy, what (apart from Dunn) is your source for claiming this mine to have been the ‘biggest German bang’? I have not been able to establish the size of the charge (which was very probably blown by Pionier Mineurkompanie 295 formed in April 1916). The largest recorded German mine on the Western Front was blown at Vauquois on 14 May 1916 and wiped out 108 French soldiers of the 46th Infantry Regiment. It was probably 50,000kg and formed a crater almost 60m in diameter. The Red Dragon crater looks comparable in size. Jeremy - What happened to the proposed A1 extension? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyman Posted 24 June , 2009 Share Posted 24 June , 2009 The short article that I wrote was in Gunfire No4 June 1987, I will try to post the actual text. Simon, I think the splodge in the yellow field was the crater that was filled in about 5 years ago. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 24 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2009 The article would be most welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyman Posted 24 June , 2009 Share Posted 24 June , 2009 Here is is for your delectation and delight, some pics later. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 24 June , 2009 Share Posted 24 June , 2009 I often find that the map source that used to be called Live Search Maps is clearer than Google Earth. On my screen, there is clearly a circle by the 'L' formed by the two roads, particularly on zoom. I wouldn't argue with anyone who is an expert, but simply offer an alternative. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyman Posted 25 June , 2009 Share Posted 25 June , 2009 View to the south from D167 approx position of German front line. Power station now demolished was site of the 'Brickstacks', foreground The Red Dragon Crater long gone by 1983 when photo taken. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2009 The fate of the crater has been a bee in my bonnet ever since Bertie X [name escapes me] a Retired Officer [Army] at JHQ Rheindahlen told me c. 1980 that he had located the remains of the hole recently. Do we have a native speaker on the books sufficiently interested to engage the Mairie, or Hotel de Ville, or the Commune, in meaningful Q and A, I wonder? Thank you Bob and Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyman Posted 25 June , 2009 Share Posted 25 June , 2009 Again a 1983 view looking east, Warlingham crater on right. I would welcome a difference of opinon from anyone who thinks I am mistaken in saying that it is Warlingham, we can all make mistakes............. The Red Dragon crater it is not. You are however looking at the 'site' of RD. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2009 All sing: Somebody filled it, It wasn't me: I wonder, I wonder, Who it can be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2009 Incidentally Grumpy, what (apart from Dunn) is your source for claiming this mine to have been the ‘biggest German bang’? I have not been able to establish the size of the charge (which was very probably blown by Pionier Mineurkompanie 295 formed in April 1916). The largest recorded German mine on the Western Front was blown at Vauquois on 14 May 1916 and wiped out 108 French soldiers of the 46th Infantry Regiment. It was probably 50,000kg and formed a crater almost 60m in diameter. The Red Dragon crater looks comparable in size. Graves [an unreliable source any day of week] said: Only a few days before, the Germans had sent up the biggest mine blown on the Western front so far. It caught our B Company -- the B's were proverbially unlucky. The crater, which was afterwards named Red Dragon Crater after the Royal Welch regimental badge, must have been about thirty yards across. There were few survivors of B Company. I have no evidence, but it was, from photos, to rival any that I have seen, and I have seen a fair number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyman Posted 25 June , 2009 Share Posted 25 June , 2009 Taken looking accross Warlingham towards the D167 in a NW direction August 1982. The trees on the right hide the 55Div memorial. The Red Dragon would be in the field between the crater and trees. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 25 June , 2009 Share Posted 25 June , 2009 Great photos, Bob. My friend Keith Quibell visited it in the 70s and has some photos of it, which I have been trying to get him to scan for some time. David L. I am presuming you mean Bertie Whitmore by the BAOR officer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 25 June , 2009 Share Posted 25 June , 2009 Jeremy - What happened to the proposed A1 extension? As I understand it, the proposal is still in the planning stage although this is the most likely of the three alternatives for routes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2009 Great photos, Bob. My friend Keith Quibell visited it in the 70s and has some photos of it, which I have been trying to get him to scan for some time. David L. I am presuming you mean Bertie Whitmore by the BAOR officer? Yes yes, Berie Whitmore ..... lovely fellow. I would dearly love to see the Quibbel photographs. Bribe, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 June , 2009 Share Posted 26 June , 2009 I keep working on him - maybe one day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brummie Fusilier Posted 26 June , 2009 Share Posted 26 June , 2009 I have fiddled for a couple of days with a trench map that shows the Red Dragon Crater and Ducks Bill clearly. I know this isn't a science but I have lined up the two roads as closely as I could get them and overlayed them on the google earth photo. The most important thing is the French Cemetery at the bottom is lined up fairly much spot on. I have tried to keep the width of the roads on the map and the photo the same as to not lose any perspective. It shows the crater much farther to the left of what has been shown so far. I'm not questioning any ones expert opinion but this is where I have always thought the crater to be. Brodie on and ducks below the parapet Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 27 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2009 The grandson of a man who won an MM at Red Dragon is surely not to be argued with! Regards to your dad, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brummie Fusilier Posted 27 June , 2009 Share Posted 27 June , 2009 Thanks David ! I will pass on your regards to Dad, I'm out tonight with him. I know you already know this, but as an addition to the above the crater according to the Regimental Records was approximately 75 by 150 yards at the base; the lips being 40 feet high. Or 68 metres by 137 metres the lips being 12 metres high I would say that would make it bigger than any other before it considering those measurements are the bottom of the 'ole Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 27 June , 2009 Share Posted 27 June , 2009 I once did some comparisons using Linesman. In this software it is much easier, and having a variety of map editions in theory it aids in accuracy. I found, however, that the location of Red Dragon Crater as shown on trench maps varies greatly. Personally I think an accurate plan could only be produced using contemporary aerial photography and relating that to the ground today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brummie Fusilier Posted 27 June , 2009 Share Posted 27 June , 2009 Your quite right Paul, of course regarding this method the trench maps are the flaw. I just like to think it's there, whenever I go there (at least once sometimes twice a year) I need some perspective and I have always used this as my marker. Could be the wrong one but it works for me. It's nice to find a place where so many people are interested in this event and to be able to discuss it, more importantly to remember it. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 2 March , 2010 Share Posted 2 March , 2010 You may be interested to read the results of an April 2006 Resistivity Survey in the vicinity of the Red Dragon crater carried out Dr. Iain Banks (Director, Glasgow University Archaeological Research Division) and Dr. Tony Pollard (Director, Centre for Battlefield Archaeology, Glasgow University). It has just been added to the Tunnellers Memorial site. Please follow this link: http://www.tunnellersmemorial.com/Survey.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 2 March , 2010 You may be interested to read the results of an April 2006 Resistivity Survey in the vicinity of the Red Dragon crater carried out Dr. Iain Banks (Director, Glasgow University Archaeological Research Division) and Dr. Tony Pollard (Director, Centre for Battlefield Archaeology, Glasgow University). It has just been added to the Tunnellers Memorial site. Please follow this link: http://www.tunnellersmemorial.com/Survey.htm Superb: a breathtaking read. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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