Live Ordnance Removal from old battlefields.

[James Blonde]

Hallo Fellow Members,

Just a quick question with regards old Ordnance & French Battlefields,

1. is there any annual figures for recovery of items.

2. Any casualty figures for deaths or injury by year post WW1 to current year,

for death or injury either to Military Ordnance personnel, Tourists,

or battlefield scavengers.

Reason for asking is that, on another forum, a poster is claiming that these areas are quite safe

without anything dangerous, i.e. seldom or if ever being found.

Connaught Stranger.

[rumjar]

hi mate,

take it from me he is wrong it is very dangerous i would like to meet this guy in ALBERT,

AND SHOW HIM THE MAN WITH NO HANDS.

JOE(RUMJAR)

[auchonvillerssomme]

The man with no hands...whos that then?

[old-ted]

The man with no hands...whos that then?

Don't know who rumjar is refering to.

John

[auchonvillerssomme]

The only man I have seen sans mains, but he isn't local I don't think, is a veteran French Army officer who used to attend the remembrance services at Thiepval.

Mick

[Paul Reed]

There used to be a trader at militaria fairs on the Somme, and who used to sell items through the Musee and le Tommy who had lost one had to a German grenade. He continued to "defuse" even after the accident, but I haven't seen him for a while, so maybe his luck ran out?

In the past few years I have read about half a dozen obituaries in French/Flemish papers of people killed by Great War munitions while attempting to dismantle them. The last farmer I recall being injured was at Monchy le Preux c.1998/9.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Is it true or a myth that French tractors are armoured plated beneath the cabs, also does anyone have a photo of the memorial to the farmers who have died whilst ploughing the fields.

The thing I hate to see most on the battlefields are when either farmers or field walkers place unexploded shells on the walls or beside the walls of memorials/cemeteries. I have a photo of an uxb on top of the information board at the Welsh memorial at Memetz and another photo taken this year of an 18 lbr standing upright on the wall of Owl Trench Cemetery. We watched a farmer carrying a huge shell to the side of the road, we dont know if it was still live or not but no doubt the farmer would have carried it either road. Maybe being brought up with all this stuff around the know what they can move and what they cant.

Kevin

[Sly]

Hi,

here are the official figures (from "service du déminage d'Amiens" = bomb disposal squad in Amiens):

Somme and Oise

ANNEE (year) TONNAGE TOTAL EXPLOSIFS (tons of explosive collected)

2000 51,734

2001 34,953

2002 43,331

2003 56,9912

2004 74,9325

2005 57,3875

2006 42,024

2007 47,528

Sly

[bruilooze]

ANNEE (year) TONNAGE TOTAL EXPLOSIFS (tons of explosive collected)

2000 51,734

2001 34,953

2002 43,331

2003 56,9912

2004 74,9325

2005 57,3875

2006 42,024

2007 47,528

Sly

The figures for 2003 to 2005 seem excessive !

Dave

[auchonvillerssomme]

The Belgians EOD battalion handles an average of 250 tons of ammunition every year, just over 3,500 call outs. Some 20 tons of "problem ammunition" (suspected chemical ammunition) are recovered each year.

So really small fry compared to the French.

Mick

[Neil Mackenzie]

Kevin.

I had always understood that the armour plating beneath the cabs story was a myth. It wouldn't be the tractor itself that would set anything off but the plough it was dragging behind it disturbing the soil - in which case plating under the tractor would be of no benefit whatsoever.

Neil

[old-ted]

Kevin.

I had always understood that the armour plating beneath the cabs story was a myth. It wouldn't be the tractor itself that would set anything off but the plough it was dragging behind it disturbing the soil - in which case plating under the tractor would be of no benefit whatsoever.

Neil

I seem to recall that the plate went between the tractor and the plough angled to deflect the force of a blast and any debris thrown up by it.

Regards

John

[auchonvillerssomme]

Someone came out with a tale that the sorting machinary for spuds was armoured as well...what tosh.

[hudsonswhistle]

There used to be a trader at militaria fairs on the Somme, and who used to sell items through the Musee and le Tommy who had lost one had to a German grenade. He continued to "defuse" even after the accident, but I haven't seen him for a while, so maybe his luck ran out?

Paul he is very much still alive,but he has now retired from dealing in militaria, his name is Francis and he lives in Oppy,he's the guy that had the place closed down if you remember, because of all the live ordnance he had in the garden.And your quiet right he did loose his hand trying to diffuse a German grenade.

[CGM]

There's a post about beet washing machines in Flanders being reinforced in this thread. Post 19

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...10573&st=15

regards

CGM

[centurion]

From the National Army Museum website recently

Unexploded shells

German shell exploding, c1916. NAM 2001-02-256-20

Approximately 720 million shells and mortars rounds were fired on the Western Front between 1914-1918. Millions did not explode. Many were recovered after the War, but experts estimate there may still be as many as 30 million shells and gas cylinders just from British guns lying in the earth along the front line.

Iron harvest

Known traditionally as the ‘Iron Harvest’, local farmers plough out unexploded shells every season. These munitions remain dangerous and fatalities occur regularly. Gas shells and canisters contain agents that remain as lethal as the day they were manufactured.

Looted battlefield artefacts for sale at a car boot sale in Britain. © NML

Despite being 90 years old ammunition – however large or small - can still explode, and in some cases becomes more dangerous with time. Professionally trained bomb-disposal experts always monitor excavations on site.

Law and responsibility

Digging, metal-detecting, or removing any objects from the fields of the Western Front without special permission is not only potentially dangerous, but also illegal. All battlefield sites are protected under French and Belgian archaeological law.

Where human remains are discovered, further responsibilities arise. First, local police must be informed. After the remains are shown to date from the War, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) is called in to ensure that the individuals uncovered are given an appropriate burial.

[auchonvillerssomme]

There's a post about beet washing machines in Flanders being reinforced in this thread. Post 19

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...10573&st=15

regards

CGM

maybe that was where the tosh came in, professor who? I will eat my words when I see an example of this machinery...adaptation maybe there to prevent damage from lumps of iron etc...but explosions?

Mick

[centurion]

maybe that was where the tosh came in, professor who? I will eat my words when I see an example of this machinery...adaptation maybe there to prevent damage from lumps of iron etc...but explosions?

Mick

Explosion is a recognised risk when using sugar beet processing equipment (just as with sugar cane processing). Nothing to do with munitions but dust air mixtures, gas given off by the beet (or cane) and the like. There are ventilation standards, shielding of electric motors etc to prevent this. I've seen specifications for armoured motor housings on beet washers.

However I can also imagine that a UX mills bomb in with the beets wouldn't be a great H&S feature. A medium bang could easily spark (literally) a big one.

[Gunner Bailey]

From the National Army Museum website recently

Looted battlefield artefacts for sale at a car boot sale in Britain. © NML

Emotive words here. This is just a photo. There is no reason to believe that the owner of these relics did not have permission to remove them or had not bought them. The sheer volume would probably indicate that they had a tie up with a French or Belgian farmer on the front line and had bought in bulk from them. To find that volume by field walking would take a very long time.

Gunner Bailey

[Gunner Bailey]

Explosion is a recognised risk when using sugar beet processing equipment (just as with sugar cane processing). Nothing to do with munitions but dust air mixtures, gas given off by the beet (or cane) and the like. There are ventilation standards, shielding of electric motors etc to prevent this. I've seen specifications for armoured motor housings on beet washers.

However I can also imagine that a UX mills bomb in with the beets wouldn't be a great H&S feature. A medium bang could easily spark (literally) a big one.

True, but not on the farm. This risk applies in the sugar refinery where all unwelcome objects would have been removed long before. So not relevant in this context.

Gunner Bailey

[old-ted]

Hallo Fellow Members,

Just a quick question with regards old Ordnance & French Battlefields,

1. is there any annual figures for recovery of items.

2. Any casualty figures for deaths or injury by year post WW1 to current year,

for death or injury either to Military Ordnance personnel, Tourists,

or battlefield scavengers.

Reason for asking is that, on another forum, a poster is claiming that these areas are quite safe

without anything dangerous, i.e. seldom or if ever being found.

Connaught Stranger.

I've had three mills bombs and quite a few live 303 rounds unearthed in my garden. You treat that stuff with a bit of respect. There's still a lot of munitions in the ground and I suspect it will be coming to the surface for many years.

Memo; must get a steel deflector plate for my lawn mower

Regards

John

[59165]

There's a post about beet washing machines in Flanders being reinforced in this thread. Post 19

CGM

My beet washing machine isn't armour plated but is harder than Tarzan's feet.

She's called Chantal .

As to 'looted artifacts',Dom from the Tommy's bar sells tons of this stuff every year & he has a few fans on the forum but,in Pozieres,he is more than likely known as an entrepreneur.

Go figure .

Not an easy subject,this sale of relics etc.

[old-ted]

To be honest, if some people are happy to part with cash for a lump of rusted metal they deserve what they get...... A lump of rusted metal. I prefer a bit of personal kit or paperwork that can be attributed to an individual.

Each to his or her own.

John

[centurion]

Emotive words here. This is just a photo. There is no reason to believe that the owner of these relics did not have permission to remove them or had not bought them. The sheer volume would probably indicate that they had a tie up with a French or Belgian farmer on the front line and had bought in bulk from them. To find that volume by field walking would take a very long time.

Gunner Bailey

Don't complain to me - ask the British Army Museum as it and the words appear on their site

[centurion]

True, but not on the farm. This risk applies in the sugar refinery where all unwelcome objects would have been removed long before. So not relevant in this context.

Gunner Bailey

The reference was to an armoured beet washing machine. These are not installed on the farm. A great many unwholesome objects get that far as the beets are collected from the farms and go direct to the processing plant. The washing machine is the first point at which the mud gets washed off and you can see what you've got. I've only seen the process in Britain where fortunately UXBs are rare! But I imagine its the same in Flanders.