cockney tone Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Ladies & Gents, Pal's, a friend of mine has recently purchased what I assume is a Great War shellcase! can any of you experts out there inform me please what all the markings on the base indicate? Thanks for your help. Regards and best wishes, Scottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Scottie, others will no doubt explain the markings in the meantime this is what the 18 pounder shrapnel shell and gun look like http://www.flickr.com/photos/glosters/3404...57616167273771/ Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockney tone Posted 12 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Norman, thank you very much for this info, a great start to answering my question. Regards, Scottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 No problem Scottie, interesting shell case by the way! Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 You have an 18 Pdr Mark II case which appears to have originally been made in Canada in 1915. The case was loaded on 4.12. 1915 and the briad arrow with the "C" is the Canadian government property mark. It was filled with a full cordite charge (CF). I am unsure about the maker as the monogram of an "S" within concentric "C" or arrows is not shown in my lists. However, it MAY be Copp Store Company, Canada. The No.1 primer was originally made by the American Locomotive Company (ALCO) also in 1915 (I cannot read the exact date). After being fired the case was annealed (A in circle) and then re-loaded with a second full charge of cordite (the second "F" after "CF". The No.1 primer was also reloaded by Royal Laboratory Woolwich (RarrowL) but again I cannot read the date. The Q.N. stamp is a mystery but may be something to do with the metal treatment of the case before it was reloaded. It is not a naval stamp. Most of the other stamps are inspectors and acceptance marks of one sort or another. Hope that helps TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Amazing Tony, but what was the name of the guy/gal who filled the case originally? Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockney tone Posted 12 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2009 TonyE Fantastic! Thank you so much for this info, this Forum never ceases to amaze me! (Do you know anything about WW2 ones as he picked one of those up at the same time?) Regards and best wishes, Scottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockney tone Posted 12 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Mod's. please delete is you think i am pushing my luck with this 2nd non Great War request! (Sorry!) Regards, Scottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Sorry for the interruption, but After being fired the case was annealed (A in circle) and then re-loaded with a second full charge of cordite (the second "F" after "CF". The No.1 primer was also reloaded by Royal Laboratory Woolwich (RarrowL) but again I cannot read the date. for the uneducated (like myself) how many times could a shell case like this be re-used? Thanks in advance Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockney tone Posted 12 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Michael, nice interuption and feel free as I class myself as really uneducated in this aspect of the Great War and appreciate any help, thank you for your input! I was totally unaware that these were recycled in this manner! Regards, Scottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Michael, from “The Collectors and Researchers Guide to the Great War Vol 2” An A in a circle will appear with one or two asterisks, this shows that the case has been annealed. When the case is fired it expands, seals the breech, and then returns to its original form. Cases can be brittle and the annealing process requires the case to be heated then rapidly cooled to ensure that the brass retains its flexibility. The example in the book shows a case that has been marked with three asterisks denoting that it has been annealed three times after the initial firing. What the maximum is I have no idea but there must come a time when the case is no longer usable. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Scottie, Thanks for the welcome here and for this fascinating thread Norman, Many thanks for your informative reply annealed three times = fired 4 times [a whole history of the war in one shell] thanks again Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick D Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Michael, Are you saying this one has been fired 4 times ? I can only see one 'A' within a circle, or do the other circled letters mean the same ? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Mick, I think Michael is referring to my post where I give an example from the book as detailed. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Mick, I think Michael is referring to my post where I give an example from the book as detailed Correct Sorry for not being more clear earlier Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 I think the most I have ever seen is for a case to be re-loaded three times (i.e. fired four times) with a full charge. The alternative mark to the "CF" was "CR" meaning cordite Reduced Charge, and as this placed far less stress on the case it was in theory possible to reload them more often. One mark I forgot to identify was the "S", which means the case has been scleroscoped, a process to detect cracks and other possible weaknesses before reloading. Although your case seems to be quite clearly stamped "QN", cases where the propellant was tied with cotton rather than silk braid were stamped "CN" and I wonder if this might be a clue. As for your WW2 case, without dimensions I cannot say what it is except that it is Belgian and made by Fabrique Nationale (FN) in 1938 at Herstal, Liege. Is it about 47mm calibre, as the "C47" could be Canone 47mm? Regards TonyE Amazing Tony, but what was the name of the guy/gal who filled the case originally? Regards Norman I am very sorry, but that information can only be imparted on a need to know basis. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Life of a Q.F. Case Q.F. cases can be refilled after firing, but as they must be reformed and cleaned after firing as they expand on firing The operation of reforming tends to weaken the case, as a certain amount of metal is turned off the base and the lower part of the body each time. To prevent accidents when firing with a smokeless propellant, the number of rounds a Q.F. case is allowed to fire is six full rounds. Any rounf fired with a full gunpowder charge is counted as half a round fired with a full service charge. In the case of a 13-pdr., 18-pdr, and 4.5-inch howitzer cartridge case, is now determined by the thickness of the wall after repair and reforming at a fixed distance from the flange and not by the number of times they have been fired. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 You have an 18 Pdr Mark II case which appears to have originally been made in Canada in 1915. The case was loaded on 4.12. 1915 and the briad arrow with the "C" is the Canadian government property mark. It was filled with a full cordite charge (CF). I am unsure about the maker as the monogram of an "S" within concentric "C" or arrows is not shown in my lists. However, it MAY be Copp Store Company, Canada. The No.1 primer was originally made by the American Locomotive Company (ALCO) also in 1915 (I cannot read the exact date). After being fired the case was annealed (A in circle) and then re-loaded with a second full charge of cordite (the second "F" after "CF". The No.1 primer was also reloaded by Royal Laboratory Woolwich (RarrowL) but again I cannot read the date. The Q.N. stamp is a mystery but may be something to do with the metal treatment of the case before it was reloaded. It is not a naval stamp. Most of the other stamps are inspectors and acceptance marks of one sort or another. Hope that helps TonyE Tony Would it be a fair assumption to think that the shell and fuze (No 85 probably) were also by ALCO (plus the primer protector)? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Michael, from “The Collectors and Researchers Guide to the Great War Vol 2” When the case is fired it expands, seals the breech, and then returns to its original form. Cases can be brittle and the annealing process requires the case to be heated then rapidly cooled to ensure that the brass retains its flexibility. [/i] I`d query this, Norman. Does the case return to its original form after firing? And annealing is not simply heating and rapidly cooling - that`s quenching. Annealing involves holding at elevated temperature to allow softening to occur and then to cool slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Hi Phil, this is lifted directly from page 4 of the excellent book. I am no expert so cannot really comment on whether this is right or wrong. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Did we ever decide what the anchor stamp was on a previous thread on the subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Did we ever decide what the anchor stamp was on a previous thread on the subject? Not yet Mick. For those interested I raised a thread a week or so ago about a piece of Trench Art with a very interesting stamp on the base. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 John I don't think you can make that correlation, as although ALCO made the primer, it was probably sent as a component to a filling factory where it was married to a case, shell and fuse from different component factories. One sees ALCO cases with British fuses, or in this example a Canadian case with an ALCO primer. AFAIK, ALCO were a component producer, not a filling factory. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 12 June , 2009 Share Posted 12 June , 2009 Life of a Q.F. Case Q.F. cases can be refilled after firing, but as they must be reformed and cleaned after firing as they expand on firing The operation of reforming tends to weaken the case, as a certain amount of metal is turned off the base and the lower part of the body each time. To prevent accidents when firing with a smokeless propellant, the number of rounds a Q.F. case is allowed to fire is six full rounds. Any rounf fired with a full gunpowder charge is counted as half a round fired with a full service charge. In the case of a 13-pdr., 18-pdr, and 4.5-inch howitzer cartridge case, is now determined by the thickness of the wall after repair and reforming at a fixed distance from the flange and not by the number of times they have been fired. John Thanks for that info, I did not know what the limit was. Although I was aware of the methods used, it always surprises me that the case was cut back after each load. I reload small arms ammo and the normal process is to resize the case through a die. The only time a case is actually cut is if it is necessary to trim it to length. Since the QF case was originally drawn using a die in a large press, I don't see why they could not have been full length resized in a similar press. Not only would this avoid loss of material around the case head, but it would also have advantages in working the brass. The cases were annealed by rotating them in a bank of gas burners and then allowing them to cool. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 13 June , 2009 Share Posted 13 June , 2009 John I don't think you can make that correlation, as although ALCO made the primer, it was probably sent as a component to a filling factory where it was married to a case, shell and fuse from different component factories. One sees ALCO cases with British fuses, or in this example a Canadian case with an ALCO primer. AFAIK, ALCO were a component producer, not a filling factory. Regards TonyE Not forgetting that the primer itself had to be filled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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