Lee Enfield MKIII

[Simon Birch]

Morning All.

I have a 1918 Lee Enfield with the following markings on it. Would any thoughtful person have any insight as to their meaning?

W8

P49

MA VII

G 2584

B.S.A. Co Ltd 1918.

There are also the crown markings and GR in several places.

Many thanks for your help.

Simon

[Tinhat47]

- B.S.A. Co Ltd 1918. shows that it was made of course in 1918 by Birmingham Small Arms.

- G2584 is your rifle's serial number. It should be stamped on the receiver, underside of the buttstock, the rear of the bolt handle, bayonet lug on the nosecap, under the rear sight leaf and the underside of the forestock near the stacking swivel. My SMLE book tells me that the G series was made at BSA in 1917, not 1918. Do all your serial numbers in these places match?

- GR is Georgius Rex, King George

- The MA VII is interesting. Mk. VII is the standard high velocity .303 cartridge, but "MA" and the then a roman number appear to be arsenal inspector markings for Australian Lithgow SMLEs. I am confused!

TonyE should be able to tell you more when he sees this!

[4thGordons]

Morning All.

I have a 1918 Lee Enfield with the following markings on it. Would any thoughtful person have any insight as to their meaning?

W8

P49

MA VII

G 2584

B.S.A. Co Ltd 1918.

There are also the crown markings and GR in several places.

Many thanks for your help.

Simon

Simon, It would be helpful to know where the markings are in some instances.

It is pretty much as Matt says I think

The main markings are on the "wrist" of the rifle and these generally follow the pattern Crown and Monarch (GR) over Manufacturer (BSA - Birmingham Small Arms) over date (1918) over Model (SHt LE) over Mark (III*) so I suspect the wrist of your rifle looks like this:

I think the explanation of the MA (which as Matt indicates is the WWII mark for the Lithgow factory in Australia) is that the rifle has probably been rebarrelled. (HV as Matt also indicates is High Velocity indicating sighted for the MkVII .303 round) Is the rifle marked D with an arrow in it or D^D anywhere? this would indicate Australian use/ownership.

The way to check this would be to remove the rear handguard (the short one) - this is held in place by two quite powerful spring clips but can be CAREFULLY levered off (be careful about the thin fingers of wood that sit either side of the rear sight as these are prone to breaking - so prone that in WWII they were often removed) on the barrel knox form (where it screws into the action) you will probably find a plethora of other markings. These will mostly be inspectors stamps and proofs but will also probably have a serial number and a date. The date is often on the other side (the left as you hold the rifle) and I would bet in this instance it will be a 1940s date in the form '42 or '43.

Serial numbers on SMLEs can be found as Matt indicates : Rifles that saw Indian service often also have the magazine numbered (usually along the spine but sometimes on the bottom) - but not always and it was not standard practice elesewhere. See pic.

The other marks sound like inspection marks but it may depend where they are.

Hope this helps

Chris

[coppertales]

I have a BSA Enfield, 1915 I think, that started out in England, then went to Australia, then to India. Talk about cartouche marks. If only these old rifles could speak...chris3

[Simon Birch]

Gentlemen,

First of all many thanks for your informative replies. First the good news - the serial number G2584 is on both the receiver and the rear of the bolt handle and the wrist of the rifle looks exactly as the photograph kindly send over by Chris.

I have removed the rear handguard and there is a number 45 on it. It also has the MA VII stamped again here. I have looked carefully but cannot see a D anywhere on it. There is however a unit marking on the disc on the butt marked with TGPI and 73116L marked on the side of the magazine. The number 49 is stamped on the butt.

I have taken some photo's - If you would like to see them can you please send me a PM with your e mail address and I will ping them across.

Again Many thanks for your help and knowledge.

Simon

[4thGordons]

Gentlemen,

First of all many thanks for your informative replies. First the good news - the serial number G2584 is on both the receiver and the rear of the bolt handle and the wrist of the rifle looks exactly as the photograph kindly send over by Chris.

I have removed the rear handguard and there is a number 45 on it. It also has the MA VII stamped again here. I have looked carefully but cannot see a D anywhere on it. There is however a unit marking on the disc on the butt marked with TGPI and 73116L marked on the side of the magazine. The number 49 is stamped on the butt.

I have taken some photo's - If you would like to see them can you please send me a PM with your e mail address and I will ping them across.

Again Many thanks for your help and knowledge.

Simon

Simon, sent you a PM with email.

if the 45 is actually '45 then it is consistent with my suggestion that the rifle was rebarrelled during WWII in Australia. This was common. Australian and Indian forces continued to use the No1 rather than the No4 rifle throughout WWII and beyond and neither Lithgow (Aust) nor Ishapore (Ind) ever produced No4 rifles (although Ishapore did FTR them) - therefore large numbers of British produced rifles went through the process. TonyE has a very interesting example with both Australian and Indian markings.

I am struggling to think which unit TGPI could be.... nothing springs to mind, perhaps other pals have some ideas.

49 is probably a rack number

73116L is in the format of a serial number (of another rifle) but.....

As has been pointed out many times - the fact that so many of the surviving SMLEs served for 60 or 70 years after the Great War (indeed some are still serving - one only has to look at pictures of Indian police and paramilitary organisations) during which time they changed hands several times is in part what makes them interesting.

Chris

[Tinhat47]

COuld it be something Punjabi Infantry?

[Simon Birch]

Chaps,

First and most importantly - Thank you for your help.

Chris - I have pinged some pictures across. I took the handguard off and there is clearly a number 45 stamped there - but it is on the photo's.

Thanks Again,

Simon

[4thGordons]

Chaps,

First and most importantly - Thank you for your help.

Chris - I have pinged some pictures across. I took the handguard off and there is clearly a number 45 stamped there - but it is on the photo's.

Thanks Again,

Simon

Hi Simon - sent you an email - definitley an Australian refinished rifle - rebarreled in 1945.

I wasn't doubting the existence of the 45 just saying it was (as it appears to be)'45 ie APOSTROPHE 45 for 1945.

I am still puzzled by the unit designation TGPI

one thought - have you had a look on the BACK of the disc? These were sometimes reused and have interesting stuff on the back.

Chris

[jeb137]

Hi Guys;

This is a good thread. A lot of vast knowledge here. Rather than start a new thread, I thought this would be a good one to continue with my question.

I stopped by an estate sale and picked up a 1914 SMLE Mk III with a Enfield Wilkinson Bayonet on it. It was kind of a impulse buy. Eventually I'd like to get a Springfield.

Anyhow, Im hoping someone here can decipher some of the markings on it. It has no disk on the stock so I do not think it was an issued weapon. But then I'm really clueless. I'd also kind of like to know what it's worth in US dollars, just to see if I over paid. The Serial Number is 7808 and matches up on both the receiver and the underside on the wood under the barrel.

Thanks

Jon B

Newaygo MI

[4thGordons]

Hi Guys;

This is a good thread. A lot of vast knowledge here. Rather than start a new thread, I thought this would be a good one to continue with my question.

I stopped by an estate sale and picked up a 1914 SMLE Mk III with a Enfield Wilkinson Bayonet on it. It was kind of a impulse buy. Eventually I'd like to get a Springfield.

Anyhow, Im hoping someone here can decipher some of the markings on it. It has no disk on the stock so I do not think it was an issued weapon. But then I'm really clueless. I'd also kind of like to know what it's worth in US dollars, just to see if I over paid. The Serial Number is 7808 and matches up on both the receiver and the underside on the wood under the barrel.

Thanks

Jon B

Newaygo MI

Hi John - welcome to the forum

You appear to have a 1914, Enfield made, SMLE MkIII

The stamps on the rifle wrist are:

Crown and Initials of reigning monarch. In this case King George (hence GR - Georgius Rex)

Manufacturer. In this case Enfield (others include BSA - Birmingham Small Arms, LSA London Small Arms, Lithgow (Australia), Ishapore (India) and some unmarked known as Peddled Scheme rifles)

Model - SHt LE = Short Lee-Enfield (usually referred to as SMLE Short, Magazine Lee-enfield - the short is to distinguish it from the earlier longer! ones)

Mark in this case III (after late 1915/early 16 a simplified wartime production version was introduced marked III* - (say three-star)

I would need to see condition and a bit more detail before giving a price estimate (which is market dependent anyway!) but matching numbers are good! (check also the foresight protector and the underside of the rear sight)

I can't see from the picture if it has the magazine cut-off installed? (a MkIII would originally) and does it have the long-range (volley) sights on the other side (a flip up peep under the safety and a disc and pointer midway down the left hand side of the foreend?

It looks to be in nice shape - has the wood been refinished? It looks quite light. In WWII some of these rifles were restocked in beech.

If you take the rear handguard off and look under it (it is held by spring clips and can be carefully prised off - lift the rear sight out of the way first and watch the thin fingers of wood) you will probably find more markings

What is the bore like?

All of these things will affect value. If you got it for less that $350.00 out the door with bayonet and sling - even in the "worst case" with all of the above, you did OK.

I'd like to see more pictures

Chris (in Illinois)

(edit) By the way the absence of a stock disc does not mean it was not issued. Stock discs were not fitted and acutally removed from 1916 on. There is every chance that this rifle was indeed issued and reissued!

[jeb137]

Thanks Chris;

The stock is a lighter wood than the handguard wood. To me it does look like beech. The Serial Number under the sight is different. It appears that someone took good care of this weapon. For my money I got the Rifle as shown, with sling and bayonet.

I appreciate your looking at it and information. I'll try and take some additional pictures later.

Jon B

Newaygo MI

[4thGordons]

Looks in nice shape.

I can now see that the cutoff is not fitted, nor are the long range volley sights. This, with the replacement wood, is consistent with the rifle having been refinished (FTR'd - factory thorough refinish) at some point in it's life - this is very common (see the discussion earlier in this thread)

Under the upper handguard there will probably more stamping - and I would not be suprised to see a later barrel date indicating replacement probably during WWII. This will be in the form '43 (for 1943 etc) and is usually on the left hand side.

The deletion of the volley sight and cut-off put this rifle in MkIII* configuration (again normal)

The cut-off can be replaced for about $20.00 the volley sights (if you can find them and the new furniture) will easily cost you over 10 times that much...if you can find them.

These changes do hurt the value of the rifle some to collectors, however I like it! I will for now stand by my original $300-350 as a ballpark. have a look on one of the online gun auction sites (eg Gunbroker.com) that will give you some idea of the going rates.

look forward to more pics!

Chris

[Borden Battery]

Here is a website with information on the Lee-Enfield rifle. Borden Battery

The Lee-Enfield Rifle

This site was created to provide basic information on the many variations of the Lee-Enfield rifle, with particular emphasis placed on pictorial references. The site is organized under the following: Part One - General History, Part Two - Technical Information, Part Three - Rifle Pages, Part Four - Sub-Caliber Training Rifles, Part Five - Sporterized and Commercially Made Enfields, Bayonets, Links Page , Basic Enfield Identification and the Facts about Serial Numbers, Parker’s Rifle Shot’s Register. [Jay Currah Website][CEF Study Group - July 2006]

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/

[CptCrunch]

I am researching my grandfathers rifle and have a question. The rifle looks identical to many of the photos on this page, yet it is a 30-06, not a .303. The stamp on it is "GR 1918 SHT LE III." I know what everything means, except that I have yet to find one in his calibre. 1918 made, GR is for King George. III is Mark III, and SHT ...I have no idea other than it's different than the SMLE. LE, I take it, is for Lee Enfield.

It is complete with bayonet, brass pull-thru with cord under the butt stock cap, along with a few other cleaning bits.

He was a Lieutenant in the British Army and served in the Boer War where he was injured. Then for WWI, he was transferred to Bramshot, AB, Canada where he trained soldiers on the Lewis gun.

Can anyone tell me more about this rifle?

[4thGordons]

I am researching my grandfathers rifle and have a question. The rifle looks identical to many of the photos on this page, yet it is a 30-06, not a .303. The stamp on it is "GR 1918 SHT LE III." I know what everything means, except that I have yet to find one in his calibre. 1918 made, GR is for King George. III is Mark III, and SHT ...I have no idea other than it's different than the SMLE. LE, I take it, is for Lee Enfield.

It is complete with bayonet, brass pull-thru with cord under the butt stock cap, along with a few other cleaning bits.

He was a Lieutenant in the British Army and served in the Boer War where he was injured. Then for WWI, he was transferred to Bramshot, AB, Canada where he trained soldiers on the Lewis gun.

Can anyone tell me more about this rifle?

Any chance of some pictures?

If it is stamped GR 1918 SHT LE III then unless it has been altered after service then it will not be in anything other than .303

Some were rebarrelled in service (either a new barrel or a sleeve inside the original) to fire .22LR for training purposes and while these often retain the original markings they also almost always have the .22 designation overstamped.

I don't want to appear rude but are you absolutely, 100%, certain it is in .30-06? for example - can you fit 30-06 rounds into the magazine?

Post WWII India produced a version of the SMLE in 7.62mm (the standard NATO round - virtually identical to .308 winchester), and in the 1930s the Turks produced an Enfield/Mauser hybrid monster chambered for the 7.92mm Mauser round, there were versions of the No4 rifle produced in 7.62mm and some civilian sellers in the US post WWII have converted No4s to 45-70 Govt but I have never seen or even heard of an MkIII Enfield in 30-06.

I am a huge fan of the SMLE action as those on here know and although I am not a gunsmith I suspect very significant modifications would be needed to the magazine, extractor etc. Given the length of the 30-06 round I don't even know if it would be possible. There would then also be the question of the strength of the conversion, as standard 30-06 is a powerful cartridge.

Sometimes there is confusion with the US Rifle Model 1917 which is frequently referred to as the "US Enfield" and which was indeed produced in the millions in .30-06 calibre but this is an entirely different weapon and would not have been marked as you report.

Pictures would really help!(they have to be smaller than 100kb to post)

I am off to see if I have a spare 30-06 round to see if it will even fit in the mag case.

Chris

[CptCrunch]

You know, I'm not completely sure. Where would I look?

The rifle is with my father some 800 miles away, and he has no experience with computers and digital cameras. However, I'll see if my brother can get my some photos of it.

I was told it was a 30-06 from a neighbor some 20+ years ago when he borrowed it to go deer hunting. Dad has some old shells in a clip that he's looking for, but other than that, that's all I know. I thought the model numbers would tell me what I need to know.

I'll post again once I know more. Thanks for the info.

CC

Any chance of some pictures?

If it is stamped GR 1918 SHT LE III then unless it has been altered after service then it will not be in anything other than .303

Some were rebarrelled in service (either a new barrel or a sleeve inside the original) to fire .22LR for training purposes and while these often retain the original markings they also almost always have the .22 designation overstamped.

I don't want to appear rude but are you absolutely, 100%, certain it is in .30-06? for example - can you fit 30-06 rounds into the magazine?

Post WWII India produced a version of the SMLE in 7.62mm (the standard NATO round - virtually identical to .308 winchester), and in the 1930s the Turks produced an Enfield/Mauser hybrid monster chambered for the 7.92mm Mauser round, there were versions of the No4 rifle produced in 7.62mm and some civilian sellers in the US post WWII have converted No4s to 45-70 Govt but I have never seen or even heard of an MkIII Enfield in 30-06.

I am a huge fan of the SMLE action as those on here know and although I am not a gunsmith I suspect very significant modifications would be needed to the magazine, extractor etc. Given the length of the 30-06 round I don't even know if it would be possible. There would then also be the question of the strength of the conversion, as standard 30-06 is a powerful cartridge.

Sometimes there is confusion with the US Rifle Model 1917 which is frequently referred to as the "US Enfield" and which was indeed produced in the millions in .30-06 calibre but this is an entirely different weapon and would not have been marked as you report.

Pictures would really help!(they have to be smaller than 100kb to post)

I am off to see if I have a spare 30-06 round to see if it will even fit in the mag case.

Chris

[4thGordons]

If the rifle has not been modified since leaving British or Commonwealth military use it is very unlikely to be anything other than .303"

I could not put my hands on a 30-06 to demonstrate but that round is 3.34" long compared to the 3.08" of the .303 so I wouldn't even think there was room for a .30-06 conversion.

If your father finds the rounds - the quickest indicator even prior to looking at the headstamp would be if the rounds are rimmed or not.

Chris

Edited to correct typo.

Edited 29 April , 2012 by 4thGordons

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Gentlemen,

There is however a unit marking on the disc on the butt marked with TGPI

Simon

Simon,

As your rifle appears to have an Australian connection, the first part of the disc marking " TG " may stand for Tasmanian Government.

LF

[CptCrunch]

Just got off the phone with my dad. He couldn't find a number on the brass plate on the butt stock. However, he found the number 65680 on the breach, and "W" above the number 12.

He found some of the shells he thought were for the rifle that he'd been hanging onto for 40 years and never tried, but they don't fit. The casing says Weatherby 270 Magnum. They look like they would fit, .....but I'm not much of a rifle guy. I favor my S&W Airweight .357 and my Benelli Supernova Tactical firing buck and slugs. I do, however, enjoy learning about them.

Can you tell me why they would wrap the barrel in wood? Wouldn't that get too hot it would warp? Obviously, it hasn't, ....just wondered why they'd do that ....other than to keep from burning your hands.

[4thGordons]

If there has been a post service modification nothing stamped on the rifle is necessarily going to resolve this for you.

The number you quoted is the serial number of the rifle

The same serial should be on the reciever, the barrel knox form, the rear of the bolt handle, the underside of the rear sight, the boss of the nosepiece (bayonet mount)and possibly also the foreend.

Regarding the wood - the pieces that cover the barrel are called handguards - that should tell you what you need to know!

there is heat from the barrel under rapid fire situations would also distort the sight picture.

Early (Boer War - WWI) Magazine Lee Enfields were not entirely enshrouded with wood - as a result of the experience of the Boer war the hanguards were introduced.

Chris

[4thGordons]

If there has been a post service modification nothing stamped on the rifle is necessarily going to resolve this for you.

The number you quoted is the serial number of the rifle

The same serial should be on the reciever, the barrel knox form, the rear of the bolt handle, the underside of the rear sight, the boss of the nosepiece (bayonet mount)and possibly also the foreend.

Regarding the wood - the pieces that cover the barrel are called handguards - that should tell you what you need to know!

there is heat from the barrel under rapid fire situations would also distort the sight picture.

Early (Boer War - WWI) Magazine Lee Enfields were not entirely enshrouded with wood - as a result of the experience of the Boer war the hanguards were introduced.

Chris

[Guest]

Really old thread, I know, but I have a .303 I'd like some information on (not really concerned with price, I'm not selling it, just would like to get as much info on it as possible).

Here is what I've found (thanks for all the tips on where to look for info):

Numbers/designations on/around the action:

Lithgow SHT.LE III* 1920

Australia .303

The forward most piece of the action (where the round enters the barrel):

6

4689

A

56630

there seems to be a W stamped on the barrel, but the wooden stock obscures half of it and the rest of whatever is stamped on

Lithgow mark on opposite side along with letter 'P'

A

VIII

Under the rear sight:

Lithgow mark and the number '2'

A

( can't reliably read the rest, too odd of an angle with the light I have)

Y 8302 near bolt

opposite of that (on the other side) is the Lithgow mark and the numeral 1 (non-Roman)

On Stock:

The butt-stock, right side:

12 / 44

circular area near end of butt where service mark might have been glued on?

near bayonet mount:

Z

6850

6151 (barely distinguishable, maybe something similar)

G (or O?) 8(?)50

on bayonet boss:

A

56630

On front sight:

O (or 0)A

0 (or O)F(?, could be 4)5

There is another set of numbers near where it says "Australia .303" that I cannot fully make out:

TAOO SEACO CA (it looks double-stamped so I can't be 100% those are the letters/numbers)

there is a brass plate on the very butt of the rifle, no markings

[shippingsteel]

Well for starters your rifle was made at the Lithgow factory in Australia in 1920, with original serial number A 56630 (which correlates as correct for that year)

Looks to have seen some WW2 service, and has received some replacement parts along the way. Also been imported into the USA given the import codes.?

I think I'll leave the rest of the "technical stuff" to Chris ... (But good photos are always useful if you can work out how to upload them)

Cheers, S>S

[Guest]

that's the best I have. I tried some close-ups earlier but my camera isn't cut out for such extreme close-ups. ):