Sailing the Western Front today

[John Gilinsky]

An Englishman whom I think used to live and possibly still does in London barged through European waterways and canals via Belgium, Netherlands, France and Germany (and possibly other countries as well) in the 1980s and 1990s creating a major documentary that was well received.

John

[John Gilinsky]

Dragon: Absolutely I will post photos WHEN I do this!

John

[HVD5677]

The front in the Vosges consists of high mountain terrain, rocky outcrops, vast forests, steep drops, rock cliffs, crevasses, grassy hummocky meadows. There are parts where you can't even walk along the exact front, let alone use a boat. I am giving you a serious answer.

Anyway, good luck.

You're not kidding about the rugged terrain in the Vosges. About two weeks ago I took a 3 day backpacking trip with the local scout troop through the old 1871-1918 German-France border region, intersecting in several points with remnants of WWI trenches and blockhouses. Breathtaking scenery but a bit tough slogging for me.

[centurion]

An Englishman whom I think used to live and possibly still does in London barged through European waterways and canals via Belgium, Netherlands, France and Germany (and possibly other countries as well) in the 1980s and 1990s creating a major documentary that was well received. <br />John

<br /><br /><br />The operative word is BARGED. I have known people who went down to the Med via Belgium & France with some side trips into Germany. One guy did it in a boat with a retractable centre board (and he had the mast down and stowed the whole way). But you wouldn't want to try it in a keelboat - and forget going under sail.

[Dragon]

it is also the challenge to view history from the modern perspective highlighting the geographical hurdles and problems faced by large armies' logistics on the front(s) compared to modern technologies (

I can tell you exactly what would have happened if they'd relied on getting stuff up to a thousand metres of Vosges mountain by boat. They'd have been annihilated through lack of supplies.

I'm not being negative. I'm trying to tell you realistically what it's like up there.

[sotonmate]

JG

I enjoyed the book where the man Terry Darlington took a narrow boat (yes,a narrow boat) across the English Channel to Calais and proceeded to navigate it all the way to Carcassonne in the south of France. I was so interested in his journey that I green-highlighted the route in my Michelin Map Book. Hardly the Western Front but parts of the journey were,viz. Calais to near St Omer on the Calais Canal and the Aa,then the Neuffosse and Lys to Armentieres,the Leie to Kortrijk,Escaut to Tournai,then by various canals to Mons and Charleroi,picking up the Meuse at Namur and turning south eventually hitting the Marne etc. and passing through Paris and southwards.

I suggest that you read the book to get the idea (well you obviously have the idea !) of the scope of his adventures. I have to add my own doubts on the sail aspect of your suggestion. It might therefore become expensive running on engine for the many days required to thread your way through as much of the WF as you can join together. Unless you can find a horse-drawn narrow boat,with the added capability of the horse being able to swim and pull the boat at the same time in some of the places.

YOU could then write a book telling us all about it !

Oh yes,the book:NARROW DOG TO CARCASSONNE by TERRY DARLINGTON. ISBN 0593 053117. The Dog bit ? He took his whippet with him,and I think his wife as well !

Good reading and good luck !

Sotonmate

EDIT: Well I'm danged ! Here is the website:

http://www.narrowdog.com

[centurion]

OK I think the points been made that you arn't going to get far by keel boat. In a narrow boat the following is maybe possible:<br /><br />Hindenburg line<br /><br />Canal du Nord - Cambrai - Bourlon Wood. Quite a few Canadian connections<br />St Quentin Canal - ANZAC and American connections.<br /><br />Ypres<br /><br />Yser-Ypres Canal - Essex Farm Cemetery where "In Flanders Fields the poppies blow" was written

Lokanaal Canal - very shallow but navigable by canal boats

Mons

Mons-Conde canal

Canal Du Centre - where the last Canadian fatality of the war occured

Marne

Canal de la Meus

And not to forget

Sambre Canal - Ors - where Wilfred Owen was killed http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/collection...BOX=1&REC=5

La Bassee Canal - which has I(ndian Army connections

[Siobhan]

And you won't get far with a mast up either!

Sorry to be a spoilsport

Siobhan

[hudsonswhistle]

Ive done the canals of Northern France for many years but all powered

Dave, Mate, have you banged your head again

[John Gilinsky]

Thanks for your responses. Of course a collapsible mast would be mandatory simply due to the obvious power lines and small bridges with narrow headroom left along the routes. Thanks also for the suggested areas. Maybe someone should try sailing as much of the western front as possible and write a book about it (dog, wife and all!). Anyone up to the challenge? I would certainly start along the major English side coastal ports used in the war say, Southampton, Dover, Portsmouth, Ramsgate, then cross over and touch with Le Havre, Bouglogne, Dunkirk, Ostend, Antwerp then probably down that river that empties out at Antwerp!

After that though the itineary becomes....? Any navigators out there? What about the maritime equivalent of Linesmen and all those trench map fanatics?

John

Toronto

[ sitting comfortably for now in front of his computer monitor ]

[Robert Dunlop]

It is certainly feasible to get from Nieuport to Switzerland by waterways. Much of the scenery en route is very beautiful. Depending on how 'Western Front' is defined, then it would be possible to cover a lot of territory that was fought over. With respect to the Vosges, the Canal du Rhône au Rhin covers the area around Mulhouse. It is then possible to get to Epinal, either by following the Canal du Rhône southwest and then heading north, or back-tracking onto the Rhine and then heading up to Strasbourg and across to Nancy, then onto the Canal des Vosges. From Epinal, it is simply a question of how many of the canals and rivers to take in.

FWIIW, I would not attempt to sail the waterways. It could probably be done, though not with a yacht with a conventional keel, not totally by sail, and not in a hurry! But I am looking forward to the opportunity using a more conventional approach, having checked out many of the routes in the past.

Robert

[auchonvillerssomme]

I suppose it would also depend on the definition of the Western Front. The industrial canal network would probably get you from end to end of the reasonable bits but wouldn't give you a picture of the landscape unless you stopped every few yards to look over the banks. There is very little to be seen from the canals themselves.

Mick

[sotonmate]

JG

River Scheldte "empties out at Antwerp" !

Sotonmate

[Dragon]

From the Rhine, the front is a blue line in the far distance. The Rhine plain is flat, flat, flat, with the odd sugar factory, brewery, EDF plant and so on. Strasbourg is a gem, but was not on the front. The parts worth seeing from the battlefield point of view are 30 - 50+ km to the west, high in the mountains.

Among other routes, the Germans used the strip that is now Colmar airport to transfer stuff to the front, and from then on it was purpose-built funicular railways, mules on mule tracks, horses and humans.

In the Nancy region, there are specific locations from which missiles were lobbed at the opposition, but they take some seeking out and many are in the forested areas.

Gwyn

[John Gilinsky]

Robert: Thanks for your contributions. Canal des Vosges eh? Hope Gwyn knows about this (almost certainly she does!). "...not with a yacht with a conventional keel, not totally by sail and not in a hurry." Of course: a conventional keel and the boat(s) selected would have to have shallower than normal draft, indeed be what is referred to as "coastal cruisers" rather than full length deep keeled boats (like the one Centurion showed us earlier!). There would be a large amount of time spent motoring on auxiliary power simply due to the poor or even lack of winds and of course why would one want to hurry through such a voyage if sidetrips exploring surrounding countryside etc... were the norm?

Mick: Agreed that is why we would tie up (large dockage fees here!) frequently and bicylce (moped?) into surrounding areas.

Sotonmate: River Scheldte - of course! Dragon (aka Gwyn) made me think why not START from the VOSGES area that is the highest in elevation and thus must be the source of some of these rivers/waterways and scene of the earliest military conflicts on the WF (French minor invasion of German,etc...)?

Dragon(Gwyn): Thank you for your specific points about distances and geographical features which generally were already known. See my comment to Sotonmate - why NOT start in the Vosges the scenes of the earliest direct military confrontations and the highest elevated land in the WF and thus a contributory place to the major river systems further west?

Thanks everyone keep your specific points and ideas coming.

I hope in the very near future to offer a rough itinerary and a BIG CARROT as an incentive for people to do this!

John

[ tied up on shore relearning his knots ]

[SiegeGunner]

... why not START from the VOSGES area that is the highest in elevation ...

Great idea, John – then you can sail downhill and so travel faster ...

[John Gilinsky]

Executing the planned sailing from an unexpected embarkation jump off point that simulates partly what the German perspective might have been is added inducement. I do NOT know though what the prevailing winds are though on the Western Front though I do know that meterologists were used regularly in the war and there is of course very detailed modern data. What would the successfully invading German forces have used per the waterways available to them? I hope that I at least have planted some germinating ideas for other types of exploration of the western front: hot air balloon, jogging, light home-built aircraft, etc....

John

[ relaxing on a Friday evening with another round of stout ale from that English pub and dreaming of sailing into the history books ]

[59165]

and from then on it was purpose-built funicular railways,

Bad language will get you nowhere,Gwyn

In the Nancy region,

That is so un PC,I can't comment

Gwyn

John,start at Bassin Rond,just round the corner from us.It's where the Canadian casualties were ferried into the field hospitals in late 1918.Cambrai & Vallenciennes.

You can sail the Scarpe (canalisé) but,it will be all motor stuff as there is a lot of large traffic that use the canals up north.

Hope you have a grand trip.

Dave.

[Dragon]

What would the successfully invading German forces have used per the waterways available to them?

The Germans were defending Alsace and the Vosges, not invading them.

[John Gilinsky]

Dear Dragon (aka Gwyn): I referred to this generally if the Germans had been far more successful in going westwards than actually the fact. The tendency is to see the Western Front from the Anglo-French perspective which is understandable but surely the Germans must have thought how tantalizing that little bit of Belgium, Ostend, Dunkirk France must have been for a variety of strategic and tactical reasons. No further suggested itineraries or at least places that are must see?

John (Captain, H.M.S. Western Front)

[Dragon]

No, because the thought of sailing down the Vosges has never crossed my mind. And I cannot think of a river suitable for a yacht on any of the 'must-see' sites.

If or when you come up with an itinerary which I can take seriously I'll give you whatever help I can.

Gwyn

[John Gilinsky]

Thanks Dragon. You know us Canadians: remember the Canadien porters for the Egyptain Campain in the late 19th century overcoming those rapids? Yes there is silting, very low draughts of channels, rapids, unpredicatable water levels due to the minimal nature of the tributaries etc.... but surely once I and those willing to help can plot a reasonable itinerary I WILL ask for your assistance.

(Captain) John

[tjec]

John,

Try this interactive map, it gives some idea ot the waterways in Belgium and France

http://www.eurocanals.com/Waterways/europecountriesi.html

I suggeest you try a bilge keel yacht, up to a few year ago I had a Countess 28 with a draft

of 3' 10", ideal for East Coast sailing. Am currently renovating a tired 32 foot "gin palace" with

the intention of doing something similar to you and then meandering down to the south of France.

Let me know when you will be over (I have a nice fridge with ice compartment for the G & T's),

you never know, the timing might be right.

Regards,

Norman

[John Gilinsky]

Norman: Thanks for the link to a navigational aid which I will definitely check out. The larger the vessel the higher the dockage and shore based handling fees! Still I would go for at least a 30 footer since we would do this in at least a group of 3 or 4 people. Crew would have to be multi-tasking (photography, mapping, note-taking, interviewing, navigating, small craft / boat handling, weather monitoring, ...) so this might push for a somewhat larger vessel. However the larger one goes the less feel of the enviornment.

John

[John Gilinsky]

Norman: The sailboat that I would FANTASIZE in crossing the North Atlantic AND using to sail the internal waterways would be a Cataline 28 Mark II winged keel that has an official draught of 3 feet 10 inches. Roomy insides and safe in rough offshore weather (designed as an offshore cruiser) BUT I would NOT use it realistically to cross the ocean though (even though one could do this).

John